Why an eternal hell?

holo · Aug 19, 2012

dollarsbill said:
And that's your erroneous opinion. God will be perfectly just and righteous burning humans forever. You can call Him evil if you like, but remember we will all have to stand before Him on Judgment Day.

Yes, and I would have no problem calling him evil if that's in fact what he is. That is, he could probably scare me from saying it, but not from meaning it. Because it would be inexplicably, unforgivably, infinitely, completely EVIL. People don't even accuse THE DEVIL of doing something like that. People will say Hitler was evil because of what he did, but Auschwitz was a party compared to what those same people believe God will do to people. The jews, dissidents, homosexuals, gypsies and war prisoners didn't deserve to be starved and gassed to death, but they DO deserve to be burned forever and ever?

holo · Aug 19, 2012

dollarsbill said:
You don't fear God?

1 Peter 2:17 (NASB)
17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.

I'm not afraid of God, if that's what you mean.

holo · Aug 19, 2012

dollarsbill said:
How can someone who doesn't exist be punished forever? He cannot.

Everyone who has been executed has been punished forever.

holo · Aug 19, 2012

tankerG said:
Which pretty much sums up what Lucifer did and the reason for the creation of the eternal Lake of Fire!

Does it sum up what, say, a twelve year old kid did when he stole an apple?

And further, say I'm the owner of the apple. I'll then beat the kid senseless, which will make him fear and hate me. He'll curse at me, which forces me to beat him even more, and so on and on it goes forever and ever. I don't know if that sounds righteous to you, but it certainly doesn't sound like anything I've ever read in the bible.

Blessedj01 · Aug 19, 2012

dies-l said:
Whatever. My apology is to db. I do believe that it was misunderstood, but I accept my own responsibility for poor wording.

I will, however, stand by my remarks that the vengeful and angry god that is to be obeyed out of fear is not at all the God of Christianity and that I don't see how anyone can read the writings of John (or any of the New Testament) and come to that conception of God. And that is not about annihilation vs. eternal torment, as I know many Christians who embrace the doctrine of eternal torment (in fact of the Christians I know) who would flatly reject that conception of God.

I would agree that this would be inaccurate if it was the only description of God. However I do think it'd be a mistake to downplay the wrath of God. God is a complete personality - the "anger" of God is very much real and should be feared.

createdtoworship · Aug 19, 2012

dies-l said:
I understand Christ's Lordship to relate to how we treat Him (obedience at all costs). I understand our friendship with Him to relate to how He treats us (as a kind, gentle, and loving friend who knows better than we do what is best for us). I am not sure what you mean by "treat him like a peep", but I can't say that I believe that God is offended if we speak to him informally, sing praises to him in a style of music that is meaningful to us, and otherwise ditch pretentiousness when we come to Him or speak of Him. If you mean that we can't treat him as a casual acquaintance that we only call on when we need a favor, then yeah, I would agree with you.

treat him like a peep, you know a homeboy, a hommie.

a bud

instead of Lord of All

Blessedj01 · Aug 19, 2012

gradyll...I sympathise with what you're saying but Jesus' sacrifice also entails that we can be his friend as well as his worshippers.

dollarsbill · Aug 20, 2012

holo said:
Yes, and I would have no problem calling him evil if that's in fact what he is. That is, he could probably scare me from saying it, but not from meaning it. Because it would be inexplicably, unforgivably, infinitely, completely EVIL. People don't even accuse THE DEVIL of doing something like that. People will say Hitler was evil because of what he did, but Auschwitz was a party compared to what those same people believe God will do to people. The jews, dissidents, homosexuals, gypsies and war prisoners didn't deserve to be starved and gassed to death, but they DO deserve to be burned forever and ever?

Are you saying that you reject the Scriptures that refer to God's wrath as being evil? That would be a lot of Scripture.

dollarsbill · Aug 20, 2012

holo said:
I'm not afraid of God, if that's what you mean.

So you reject this?

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

dollarsbill · Aug 20, 2012

holo said:
Everyone who has been executed has been punished forever.

Who then is being punished forever? Answer: NOBODY.

createdtoworship · Aug 20, 2012

Blessedj01 said:
gradyll...I sympathise with what you're saying but Jesus' sacrifice also entails that we can be his friend as well as his worshippers.

"Nothing is more dangerous than under-estimating and under-appreciating the holiness of God. Why? When we under-estimate the holiness of God we under-estimate the mercy of God. We cheapen God's grace because we don't comprehend His holiness. And the foundation of salvation begins to crumble."

-Christian post in an article entitled "Jesus isn't your homeboy"

Blessedj01 · Aug 20, 2012

gradyll said:
"Nothing is more dangerous than under-estimating and under-appreciating the holiness of God. Why? When we under-estimate the holiness of God we under-estimate the mercy of God. We cheapen God's grace because we don't comprehend His holiness. And the foundation of salvation begins to crumble."

-Christian post in an article entitled "Jesus isn't your homeboy"

I never said that Jesus was my 'homeboy,' but the Bible says: "The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!" - Luke 7:34

...and it says "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." - John 15:15

Now I do recall you taking strong offense to someone who you perceived as belittling one's standing with God and the depth of their relationship. Therefore I find it somewhat ironic that now the insinuation is that I am cheapening and under-estimating the holiness and grace of God. It seems that Jesus' own words are au contraire to the position you are taking.

The brilliant thing about this relationship we have with God is that He has provided a way that we might be able to call Him a friend. This does not in any way take away from the awesome majesty of God, or make the suggestion that he is a mere buddy and not the sovereign ruler of one's life. God is the probably the only real friend anyone has - for He is the only one capable of perfect Love.

I will leave you with one more line of scripture: "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." - James 2:23.

createdtoworship · Aug 20, 2012

Blessedj01 said:
I never said that Jesus was my 'homeboy,' but the Bible says: "The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!" - Luke 7:34

...and it says "Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." - John 15:15

Now I do recall you taking strong offense to someone who you perceived as belittling one's standing with God and the depth of their relationship. Therefore I find it somewhat ironic that now the insinuation is that I am cheapening and under-estimating the holiness and grace of God. It seems that Jesus' own words are au contraire to the position you are taking.

The brilliant thing about this relationship we have with God is that He has provided a way that we might be able to call Him a friend. This does not in any way take away from the awesome majesty of God, or make the suggestion that he is a mere buddy and not the sovereign ruler of one's life. God is the probably the only real friend anyone has - for He is the only one capable of perfect Love.

I will leave you with one more line of scripture: "And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God." - James 2:23.

well if Jesus isn't your homeboy, why are we still discussing this? I never said Jesus was not a friend.

Blessedj01 · Aug 20, 2012

gradyll said:
well if Jesus isn't your homeboy, why are we still discussing this? I never said Jesus was not a friend.

Can I ask you that?

...because I certainly don't subscribe to that kind of flippant "Jesus is my Homeboy" stuff. If one were to say that sincerely while providing the context of God's full character I would be fine with it, but the vast majority of people who wear those t-shirts (which is usually where the slogan appears) aren't doing that. I think they think it's a joke.

holo · Aug 20, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Are you saying that you reject the Scriptures that refer to God's wrath as being evil? That would be a lot of Scripture.

I can't rememberany bible verse saying God is evil off the top of my head. Yes, there are scriptures speaking of God's wrath, and there are scriptures speaking of God being righteous. God would be just in inflicting infinite torture if there was some being that deserved it. God can not torture people forever and be righteous at the same time.

holo · Aug 20, 2012

dollarsbill said:
So you reject this?

Proverbs 9:10 (NASB)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.

No, I just don't think "fear of the Lord" means to be afraid of the Lord.

holo · Aug 20, 2012

dollarsbill said:
Who then is being punished forever? Answer: NOBODY.

Not punished forever in the sense of being continually and consciously punished. Just like if you say someone are eternally dead - that doesn't mean to be continually in a state of dying, it means to be dead. Or eternal life, for that matter - it's not about becoming more and more alive as time goes, it's being alive and then staying alive, kinda like the Bee Gees.

holo · Aug 20, 2012

gradyll said:
"Nothing is more dangerous than under-estimating and under-appreciating the holiness of God. Why? When we under-estimate the holiness of God we under-estimate the mercy of God. We cheapen God's grace because we don't comprehend His holiness. And the foundation of salvation begins to crumble."

True. And a god, or anybody else, acting 239486709485209873245 times worse than Hitler, for 209348759287358972304587 millennia, and then another 204587032985703485 millennia just to get you warmed up, burning you forever and ever, isn't what I'd call a "holy" god, not in any positive, non-evil sense of the word anyway.

Blessedj01 · Aug 20, 2012

holo said:
True. And a god, or anybody else, acting 239486709485209873245 times worse than Hitler, for 209348759287358972304587 millennia, and then another 204587032985703485 millennia just to get you warmed up, burning you forever and ever, isn't what I'd call a "holy" god, not in any positive, non-evil sense of the word anyway.

:o

holo · Aug 20, 2012

Blessedj01 said:
:o

Or to put it another way, why would you praise such a god? Could you praise such a god?

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