Why an eternal hell? (2)

seeingeyes · Aug 29, 2012

holo said:
Paul also apparently states that people are the way they are because God decided to make them so. He then rethorically asks "then how can God judge me" and answers "who are you to question God" - which in my honest opinion is a totally cop-out answer.

I just wanted to hop in to say that Paul's answer might not be quite the cop out that you think. It's a little long, because this is important enough to avoid quote-mining.

From Isaiah (to Cyrus)

"I am the Lord, and there is no other;apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.

I am the Lord, and there is no other.
I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

You heavens above, rain down righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness grow with it;
I, the Lord, have created it.

Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,
to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
What are you making?
Does your work say,
He has no hands?
Woe to him who says to his father,
What have you begotten?
or to his mother,
What have you brought to birth?(Isaiah 45:5-10)

Now in the bold, salvation and righteousness are hand in hand.

And here:

Seek the Lord while he may be found;
call on him while he is near.
Let the wicked forsake his way
and the evil man his thoughts.
Let him turn to the Lord, and he will have mercy on him,
and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,
declares the Lord.

As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

As the rain and the snow
come down from heaven,
and do not return to it
without watering the earth
and making it bud and flourish,
so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will not return to me empty,
but will accomplish what I desire
and achieve the purpose for which I sent it. (Isaiah 55:6-11)

In the bold, God's ways are mercy on the wicked, which is totally unlike man's ways.

And here:

Righteousness and justice are the foundation of your throne;love and faithfulness go before you.
Blessed are those who have learned to acclaim you,
who walk in the light of your presence, O Lord.
They rejoice in your name all day long;
they exult in your righteousness.
For you are their glory and strength,
and by your favor you exalt our horn.
Indeed, our shield belongs to the Lord,
our king to the Holy One of Israel.(Psalm 89:14-18)

In the bold, blessed are those who learn.

And here:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone. In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.(Heb 2:9-11)

Jesus was made perfect through suffering.

Now back to Paul:

Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of Gods mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. (Romans 11:30-32)

I'm running out of room here, but once you abandon the idea that God has created a playground of wickedness so that He will have plenty of folks to barbeque (which you have), you are free to explore what God is doing. Paul's statement about who-could-question-God is only a cop out if it is explaining away injustice.

But if you are talking about a God whose motivation is redemption, then it's a different story altogether.

God bless

dollarsbill · Aug 29, 2012

holo said:
Maybe it is, but I'm not so sure it's about sinners.

These certainly are not God's people.

Revelation 22:11 (NASB)
11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy;"

FredVB · Aug 29, 2012

Originally Posted by Fred V B
So after dying there is no more sin to continue.

holo said:
Then why would the punishment continue?

There is just judgment for sin (and of course that is fair), although there is physical death since the fall in sin, the souls God made are not subject to that physical process, they were made to last, and it is for this Christ came for them to have life eternally, which means to have physical resurrection to be what he made us to be in eternity in relationship with him. The dead who miss that are the unredeemed who resisted the grace of Yahweh God to them and their souls are left in eternity with what comes from the just judgment, exactly in the right way for each sinner. Again, it is undesirable and nobody should want that and it it why Christ came and bore a great burden we cannot understand, for all to have opportunity to be spared, because he alone was able to do that.

Originally Posted by Fred V B
In the old testament times there was still forgiveness to people for sin, and it was with them having faith, with riight works coming with it, counted righteous because their faith in response to God's grace is fulfilled in Christ who then came and with what he did they are covered.

holo said:
Does the bible say that?

My statement there was in response to your earlier objection that forgiveness was shown in the old testament and it was your conclusion that forgiveness did not always require anything that Christ did. But in the new testament it is made clear that forgiveness from God for sin is through Christ alone, with who he is and what he did, and yes the Bible does say that with people in old testament times having forgiveness from God for sin the same way. See Hebrews 11.

holo · Aug 29, 2012

gradyll said:
??

I don't see Rev 22 saying that sinners shall burn in hell forever.

holo · Aug 29, 2012

gradyll said:
so you admit there are verses for eternal hell, lets talk about those.

Yes, it appears that Rev speaks about satan and the beast being tormented forever. The idea that sinners will be tortured forever, though, is preciously hard to find in the bible, but you'd think that if that's the fate for most people who ever lived, the bible would be pretty clear about it from the beginning. Yet there's no mention of anything that can be interpreted that way in the entire OT. Not even a warning against this eternal torture that all except a few israelites would escape. Paul never preached it, and neither did Jesus (he did talk about Gehenna and branches thrown in the fire, but that's not hell as in eternal torment). And again, it goes against every idea of righteous judgment.

holo · Aug 29, 2012

gradyll said:
they are eternally dying without ever coming to the final point of death. Thats all that means.

No, because it plainly says death. Death is the absence of life. Eternal life is the opposite of eternal death.

"Eternally dying" doesn't make sense, it's an oxymoron. It doesn't make more sense than saying those who are saved will continually become "more" alive but never actually getting to be alive.

holo · Aug 29, 2012

gradyll said:
Remember? "God doesn't follow our social structures". thats what you just said in a recent post.

http://www.christianforums.com/t7682234/#post61280606

He doesn't follow our social structures, but justice and righteousness aren't social structures.

holo · Aug 29, 2012

seeingeyes said:
I'm running out of room here, but once you abandon the idea that God has created a playground of wickedness so that He will have plenty of folks to barbeque (which you have), you are free to explore what God is doing. Paul's statement about who-could-question-God is only a cop out if it is explaining away injustice.

Thank you for that post.

I don't see Paul trying to explain away injustice, but I see him asking the same question as I: how can God decide that a person shall sin, and then condemn him for doing it? "Who are you to question God?" just isn't much of an answer. I take it Paul couldn't answer it either, but he did seem to have faith in God to be in control of it all.

holo · Aug 29, 2012

dollarsbill said:
These certainly are not God's people.

Revelation 22:11 (NASB)
11 "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy;"

Let me rephrase it: I'm not so sure it's about the eternal fate of sinners. If God hates sin it seems like a bad idea to force people to sin forever.

holo · Aug 29, 2012

Fred V B said:
There is just judgment for sin (and of course that is fair), although there is physical death since the fall in sin, the souls God made are not subject to that physical process, they were made to last

Does the bible say that?

(Asking sincerely, not condescendingly.)

seeingeyes · Aug 29, 2012

holo said:
Thank you for that post.

I don't see Paul trying to explain away injustice, but I see him asking the same question as I: how can God decide that a person shall sin, and then condemn him for doing it? "Who are you to question God?" just isn't much of an answer. I take it Paul couldn't answer it either, but he did seem to have faith in God to be in control of it all.

There is no redemption without loss, there is no restoration without brokenness, there is no love without sacrifice.

Condemnation is not now and never was the end goal. But it is a necessary step on the path to redemption.

Or to put it crudely: Ya gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet.

God doesn't want unbroken eggs. He doesn't even want broken eggs. What He wants is an omelet. And we are gonna be the best damn omelet the universe has ever seen. Even the angels rejoice when they see the Chef at work.

God bless

createdtoworship · Aug 29, 2012

gradyll said:
this quote is what I mean that God does not follow our social structures.(according to your own quote) (not Holiness and Judgement)

http://www.christianforums.com/t7682234-2/#post61280606

this is what I meant

createdtoworship · Aug 29, 2012

holo said:
Does the bible say that?

(Asking sincerely, not condescendingly.)

well the false prophet lives a thousand years in the lake of fire, are you saying He doesn't have a soul because He is wicked? Why be judged if He didn't have a soul of free will?

createdtoworship · Aug 29, 2012

holo said:
No, because it plainly says death. Death is the absence of life. Eternal life is the opposite of eternal death.

"Eternally dying" doesn't make sense, it's an oxymoron. It doesn't make more sense than saying those who are saved will continually become "more" alive but never actually getting to be alive.

that is what actually happens, you don't have eternal life until the end of it. The culmination of eternity is eternal life. Makes perfect sense. But like I said many times before usually hell is not described as death persay it is described as torment, or everlasting shame etc.

createdtoworship · Aug 29, 2012

holo said:
He doesn't follow our social structures, but justice and righteousness aren't social structures.

what do you mean they are not human inventions? We limit God's righteousness and Justice by our own all the time. How would we literally understand the Holy Judge if we didn't compare Him to a civil Judge?

Black36 · Aug 29, 2012

holo said:
Yes, it appears that Rev speaks about satan and the beast being tormented forever. The idea that sinners will be tortured forever, though, is preciously hard to find in the bible, but you'd think that if that's the fate for most people who ever lived, the bible would be pretty clear about it from the beginning. Yet there's no mention of anything that can be interpreted that way in the entire OT. Not even a warning against this eternal torture that all except a few israelites would escape. Paul never preached it, and neither did Jesus (he did talk about Gehenna and branches thrown in the fire, but that's not hell as in eternal torment). And again, it goes against every idea of righteous judgment.

Hey Holo,

I'm new to the conversation and have not read the entire thread. I'm curious:

What exactly is your issue with hell? What's wrong with it?

createdtoworship · Aug 29, 2012

holo said:
No, because it plainly says death. Death is the absence of life. Eternal life is the opposite of eternal death.

"Eternally dying" doesn't make sense, it's an oxymoron. It doesn't make more sense than saying those who are saved will continually become "more" alive but never actually getting to be alive.

I think you are comparing an eternal God to our civil system. Life in prison verses the death penalty. But God is more complex than our measly systems. It is more like life in prison. And Hell is described by these terms many times over.

Timothew · Aug 30, 2012

Black36 said:
Hey Holo,

I'm new to the conversation and have not read the entire thread. I'm curious:

What exactly is your issue with hell? What's wrong with it?

Shouldn't you be asking gradyll where he gets his idea of hell from?
It's not biblical.

holo · Aug 30, 2012

gradyll said:
well the false prophet lives a thousand years in the lake of fire, are you saying He doesn't have a soul because He is wicked? Why be judged if He didn't have a soul of free will?

I don't know much about the false prophet, but I don't think we should assume that he (she?) will automatically share the same fate as us regular sinners.

edit: I shouldn't say "us regular sinners," because we who believe are saints, not sinners.

holo · Aug 30, 2012

gradyll said:
that is what actually happens, you don't have eternal life until the end of it.

So we don't ever actually get eternal life then. But sinners do...

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