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This is a pretty big thread...perhaps it's going to run eternally!
That is because the over-arching theme of the bible is faith, grace, hope and love. God is looking for us to come to salvation, not hell, therefore He mentions it only briefly.
May God Richly Bless you!
It's circular now, that's when I drop out.
It's circular now, that's when I drop out.
But I enjoyed debating with you, you have my respect forever. I may add something later, but this moving will also take forever. It has caused some stress between my wife and I, good thing long ago she said she would love me forever. Now if I could find my son, he was supposed to be cleaning the back yard, he said it would take him forever, but I can't find him, when I do, there will be some torture involved for him.
I fail to see how it follows that because God is infinite, sin against him must also be infinite. I don't think the bible says that either. It seems to contradict what is said in the bible about scapegoats and the sacrifice of Christ. Suppose you're right that, for some reason, God's infinity requires that he punishes a sin infinitely - how does that fit in with animal sacrifices or God simply forgiving people? He has forgiven people a lot, is there a particular reason there are certain sins, or certain people, he can't forgive?Ok, Jesus is part of the trinity of God right? Which means His sacrifice would therefore have paid an infinite price. He had to become flesh to pay that price, but He was always infinite. He took the wrath of God, and buried it in the grave for those who will follow Him.
Unless you sin for an eternity, it's not fair to be punished for eternity.Being in in anguish under fair judgment forever (which is the only sense that there could be agreement of a meaning of being punished infinitely) is not to say they are punished infintely more than is deserved, that is using words to argue against a position not being posted, a straw man argument.
I think we can at least agree that it's not unreasonable to interpret the bible both ways regarding that, especially considering the imprecise translation of aion. What statement from Jesus did you have in mind?It is unending according to what is said in the Bible, even by Christ.
But it isn't fair judgment. It's not perfect justice. It's not justice in any way. It's brutal, cruel, doesn't fit the crime. It's something the devil would do.Perfect justice with the goodness of God comes with this as fair judgment
Not sure about that. The bible says God simply forgives people, too.All sin must be payed for according to true justice.
It's circular now, that's when I drop out.
But I enjoyed debating with you, you have my respect forever. I may add something later, but this moving will also take forever. It has caused some stress between my wife and I, good thing long ago she said she would love me forever. Now if I could find my son, he was supposed to be cleaning the back yard, he said it would take him forever, but I can't find him, when I do, there will be some torture involved for him.
Armistead14 said:It's circular now, that's when I drop out.
But I enjoyed debating with you, you have my respect forever. I may add something later, but this moving will also take forever. It has caused some stress between my wife and I, good thing long ago she said she would love me forever. Now if I could find my son, he was supposed to be cleaning the back yard, he said it would take him forever, but I can't find him, when I do, there will be some torture involved for him.
holo said:I fail to see how it follows that because God is infinite, sin against him must also be infinite. I don't think the bible says that either. It seems to contradict what is said in the bible about scapegoats and the sacrifice of Christ. Suppose you're right that, for some reason, God's infinity requires that he punishes a sin infinitely - how does that fit in with animal sacrifices or God simply forgiving people? He has forgiven people a lot, is there a particular reason there are certain sins, or certain people, he can't forgive?
Why?I know it's scary, but God's wrath will last for an infinite time against those that are his enemies.
And what he wants to spare us from is, in reality and effect, Himself... :/When we understand what he actually wants to spare us from
Unless you sin for an eternity, it's not fair to be punished for eternity.
I think we can at least agree that it's not unreasonable to interpret the bible both ways regarding that, especially considering the imprecise translation of aion. What statement from Jesus did you have in mind?
But it isn't fair judgment. It's not perfect justice. It's not justice in any way. It's brutal, cruel, doesn't fit the crime. It's something the devil would do..
God cannot look on any sin, this means he will necessarily deal with it.
I have been saying that for at least the last 50 pages of this thread. The implication that you are making here is just plain dishonest.
Once again, consider the following example: "If you kill someone, you will go to prison, where you will stay until you die" followed a few sentences later by "If you break into someone's home and steal their belongings, you will go to prison." By your reasoning, the above statements would mean that the penalty for burglary is the same as the penalty for murder: life in prison. But, that is not a reasonable inference from the above sentences. In fact, the difference between those two sentences would suggest that the most reasonable inference is that there is distinction between the penalty for murder and the penalty for burglary.
Now, lets' turn to Revelation 20:
10 And the devil, who deceived them,(AE) was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur,(AF) where the beast(AG) and the false prophet(AH) had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.(AI)
So, the Bible says that the punishment set aside for the devil, the beast, and the false prophet is (a) to be thrown into the lake of burning sulfur and (b) to be tormented day and night forever and ever.
15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life(AX) was thrown into the lake of fire.
And, the punishment set aside for those who names are not found written in the book of life is being thrown into the lake of fire.
This is not just a matter of the two passages "read differently." This is a material difference that shows that the two passages point to two different types of punishments. Their proximity, combined with their material differences, emphasizes that fact, and in no way diminishes it.
It would be a very bizarre rule of textual interpretation to say that to two passages, written in very similar language and in close proximity to each, but with a pronounced a very material omission in the second of the two passages, must mean exactly the same thing the material omission notwithstanding. When two passages read very similarly, but where one of the passages is different in some material way, the proper rule of textual interpretation would lead a reasonable person to believe that the omission was intentional and points to a material difference in meaning.
I fail to see your line of logic.
Both destinations are the lake of fire.
There is no implications of anyone ever leaving the lake of fire. This is your wishful thinking again.
And I am pleased by your strawman arguments of saying I am dishonest.
Just more ammunition against you.
Your arguments are emotionally based and not based on logic.
Beyond all reason you hope that God would never torment eternally
and therefore every verse in the Bible follows suit to your view.
God's wrath is another thing people minimize. I know it's scary, but God's wrath will last for an infinite time against those that are his enemies. For this reason we actually should be afraid of God because that is the beginning of wisdom. When we understand what he actually wants to spare us from, we'll better understand how much He loves us. If our sin is so grave - how can anyone forgive it? Only God has that kind of love.
But don't be fooled into thinking he doesn't have that kind of wrath either.
first you seem to think that a lake burning with sulfur is different than a lake burning with fire. Just because one verse suggests more detail does not mean they are different lakes!That is not technically correct. Verse 10 speaks of "the lake of burning sulfur", "the lake of fire and brimstone", or "the lake of fire and sulfur", depending on your translation (That was NIV, NASB, and ESV, for your edification). But, that is missing the point.
Even if they did say the exact same thing, the omission of "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" (ESV) in verse 15 indicates a very different fate. Either that or John and the Holy Spirit were just sloppy in their writing. I would go with the former conclusion rather than the latter.
It would be a very bizarre rule of textual interpretation to say that to two passages, written in very similar language and in close proximity to each, but with a pronounced a very material omission in the second of the two passages, must mean exactly the same thing the material omission notwithstanding. When two passages read very similarly, but where one of the passages is different in some material way, the proper rule of textual interpretation would lead a reasonable person to believe that the omission was intentional and points to a material difference in meaning.
you can, with a clean conscience, accuse me of making a weak argument?
first you seem to think that a lake burning with sulfur is different than a lake burning with fire. Just because one verse suggests more detail does not mean they are different lakes!
secondly,
you seem to think me and dollars bill are purposefully lying to deceive. And this is simply not true. Even if we are wrong, we are not lying. We believe what we say to be in the Bible and what the Bible says. I have never accused you of lying. Yet you accuse us of deceiving. And specifically of omitting text from the Bible and deceiving as a result.
again I have purposefully not tried to deceive and am reading the Bible truthfully, this is a strawman. You however are trying to say that there are two lakes of fire, (if I understand your argument) and this is simply not the correct viewpoint. For one these are mentioned within five verses of each other, do you think God would want us to be confused about where the wicked will spend eternity. The plain meaning makes sense, so seek no other sense. This is a basic law of hermeneutics.
you can't help but accuse can you?
Of course I have a clean conscience regarding my arguments, you have provided no logical support for your view. You try to fog up your arguments with big words and fancy writing, but you really have no support at all. I am not accusing you of a bad conscience however, this is where we are much different.
How is that? Why can't the offender pay the full consequences for his own actions? Is it impossible to punish you enough?Sin is never fully paid for by what suffering there is by our fallen limited selves.
This may be for another thread, but I'm not so sure about the traditional view that the cross was merely a way for God to punish all the sin in the world. There are many records in the bible of God simply forgiving transgressors. But again, another topic.Only Christ could pay for it, and it for us, if we do not reject him.
On that we agree, and God's fair judgment is the point from which I read all other bible verses.Whatever it is for those going into eternity without Christ will be fair, that is foundational.
I think Armistead14 has provided some good insights into that, so I'll quote him. I'm not educated enough to determine exactly how correct he is, but it makes sense. The highlights are mine:It is unending according to what is said in the Bible, even by Christ.
Matthew 25.
Aion is an adjective and biblically can mean either nonending or for a period of time, adjectives agree with the nouns they modify. Strong's give the typical english version. Still in slang we use the word "aion" correctly, like when my son says it will take him forever to clean his room.
Aion comes from the the Hebrew word olam, which usually meant enduring or in the "far distance." This word is frequently translated as eternal in the english language as non ending time, but in Hebrew it simply meant "beyond the horizon" a very distant time.
[SNIP]
Matthew 25:46. " that the word "eternal" punishment might mean "temporary" then by that logic "eternal life" would mean the same thing." implying aion must mean the same thing, that is incorrect, it's meaning again comes from the noun it modifies.The greek word for punishment is the key, which is " kolassin" defined more as to prune a tree to insure more growth or to correct. The greeks had a strong word for punishment "timoria" not used here or other places we want to infer God's torture. If the greek had a need to promote torture, certainly they would've use "timoria." On the other hand the noun 'life' is not a noun of action, but a noun expressing a state. Thus the life itself is eternal, life is opposite of death.
Maybe, but I don't see why eternal suffering for the sinner must be the only possible way to do it.God cannot look on any sin, this means he will necessarily deal with it.
Revelation 22:11 (NASB)I fail to see how it follows that because God is infinite, sin against him must also be infinite.
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