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Maybe "eternal" doesn't mean "unending"

32L

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I was looking at a website called truebiblefacts.blogspot.com, wherein there is an article entitled "the meaning of everlasting, eternal, and forever in the Bible."

In this article the author, Richelle, states that "eternal" as used in the Bible, does not mean "forever and ever" nor does it mean "never-ending". Richelle claims that "eternal", when used in the Bible, including in reference to passages relating to "eternal punishment", is simply an English mistranslation of the Greek word "aion" (which was used in the original texts). Furthermore, "aion" specifically refers to (according to Richelle) a finite period of time, i.e., not one that is everlasting.

If this is the case, and this is to believed as true, it might suggest that Hell is a temporary state, and one out of which one may rise.

I really hope this thread doesn't devolve into chaos, given its controversial nature. I'd like to suggest that we focus mainly on what is written in Scripture, and not get bogged down with such thoughts as "why a just God would send people to Hell", and other off-topic concerns.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
 
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OzSpen

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I was looking at a website called truebiblefacts.blogspot.com, wherein there is an article entitled "the meaning of everlasting, eternal, and forever in the Bible."

In this article the author, Richelle, states that "eternal" as used in the Bible, does not mean "forever and ever" nor does it mean "never-ending". Richelle claims that "eternal", when used in the Bible, including in reference to passages relating to "eternal punishment", is simply an English mistranslation of the Greek word "aion" (which was used in the original texts). Furthermore, "aion" specifically refers to (according to Richelle) a finite period of time, i.e., not one that is everlasting.

If this is the case, and this is to believed as true, it might suggest that Hell is a temporary state, and one out of which one may rise.

I really hope this thread doesn't devolve into chaos, given its controversial nature. I'd like to suggest that we focus mainly on what is written in Scripture, and not get bogged down with such thoughts as "why a just God would send people to Hell", and other off-topic concerns.

I appreciate your thoughts on the matter.
That's not what my Arndt & Gingrich Greek lexicon states. It states that aiwnios means 'without end' and refers to 'the next life' in Luke 16:9 (p. 28).

Instead of relying on Richelle, I suggest you do some Greek exegesis. If you don't know Greek of the NT, there are tools to help you - like this Greek lexicon.

Oz
 
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daydreamergurl15

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If you're going to take that logic from the author named Richelle, please be advised that the same word "eternal" is used for both "eternal punishment and eternal life" in Matthew 25:46. If the author is claiming that the word "eternal" punishment might mean "temporary" then by that logic "eternal life" would mean the same thing.

However, the word eternal does mean "unending".
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal
 
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Armistead14

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Aion is an adjective and biblically can mean either nonending or for a period of time, adjectives agree with the nouns they modify. Strong's give the typical english version. Still in slang we use the word "aion" correctly, like when my son says it will take him forever to clean his room.

Aion comes from the the Hebrew word olam, which usually meant enduring or in the "far distance." This word is frequently translated as eternal in the english language as non ending time, but in Hebrew it simply meant "beyond the horizon" a very distant time.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever," that is--until-‑the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17); [/FONT]​

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Israel's judgment lasts "forever"‑‑until‑‑the Spirit is poured out and God restores it (Isa. 32:13‑15).[/FONT]​


Regarding both words, context has to indicate whether or not they mean for a period or age or non-ending time on a case by case basis. The greeks had a common word for non ending time "adios" which meant everlasting, why aion simply meant lasting, but the bible uses both. It certainly would've been easier had adios been used to denote endlessness, but aion is used because all these verses we debate deal with God working us in ages or periods, not the immortal world to come. Again we have to study how the adjective modifies the noun. Romans describes God as {aidios} at 1:20 and also as {aiônios} at 16:26.

Biblically, the early church saw olam and aionion as everlasting when God was the noun, but in most cases referring to man, it meant age. In cases where man was connected to God, then again it often took on the meaning everlasting. If you understand greek, you can't define aion meaning the same thing because it's in the same verse, you must again refer to the noun it modifies.

Take daydreamgurl's issue

Matthew 25:46. " that the word "eternal" punishment might mean "temporary" then by that logic "eternal life" would mean the same thing." implying aion must mean the same thing, that is incorrect, it's meaning again comes from the noun it modifies.The greek word for punishment is the key, which is " kolassin" defined more as to prune a tree to insure more growth or to correct. The greeks had a strong word for punishment "timoria" not used here or other places we want to infer God's torture. If the greek had a need to promote torture, certainly they would've use "timoria." On the other hand the noun 'life' is not a noun of action, but a noun expressing a state. Thus the life itself is eternal, life is opposite of death. So taking these meanings, we can see Matt 25 is describing some will receive aionios "age" correction, while others will receive aionios life, they will know God. The word aion has different meanings in this verse, easily seen when you compare the noun. What happens beyond that? Do all people die and does all life end when the ages end? No of course not - because people are also given immortality. We must seperate the discussions of aion age and immortality, life and punishment. Immortality is different than aionios life. Jesus came to defeat death and the ages and make all people alive, and indeed He will do that. That will happen after the aionios punishment has ended. So the life will continue on (now for everyone), but the punishment (correction) has served its purpose.

When you understand these verses in context with the numerous verses stating that in Adam we all died, but in Christ we will ALL be made alive, it brings sense. The early church believed this as a majority, you'll never find eternal torture in any of it's earliest creeds, they taught God through Christ will reconcile all. It is only when the Roman church hijacked Christianity and mixed the many pagan themes of hell, did the latin redefine hell into a non ending torture pit. This was done to control the masses and give the political church complete power using tools of total fear.
 
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Percivale

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Some times it's just Aion in Greek, other times it's eis tous aionous ton aionon: into the ages of ages. I wonder if there's a difference in meaning. Anyway, it's clear the word can mean forever, even if it doesn't have to. It's ignorant to say the word can have only one meaning. Still, it's pretty clear it always means far enough into the future that it's pointless to talk about anything beyond it.
 
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Armistead14

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If 'eternal' does not mean without end, then when it is used in relation to God, by the same logic of course, it means that his existence could come to an end.

It seems to me that dismantles Richelles unbiblical theory.


I think I pretty well explained it in my above post. Again, aion comes from the Hebrew word olam, both have the same meaning, but we know olam used in the OT didn't mean eternal in most cases, unless it referred to God.

Sodom's fiery judgment is "eternal" (Jude 7), that is--until--God "will restore the fortunes of Sodom" (Ez.16:53‑55);

Ammon is to become a "wasteland forever" and "rise no more" (Zeph. 2:9, Jer. 25:27) that is‑until‑‑the Lord will "restore the fortunes of the Ammonites" (Jer. 49:6);

An Ammonite or Moabite is forbidden to enter the Lord's congregation "forever", that is‑‑until‑‑the tenth generation (Deut. 23:3):

Habakkuk tells us of mountains that were "everlasting", that is‑‑until‑‑they "were shattered" Hab. 3:6);

God's waves of wrath roll over Jonah "forever," that is--until-‑the Lord delivers him from the large fish's belly on the third day (Jonah 2:6,10; 1: 17);​

No more should we denote aion means eternal or for an age, again, if you understand greek, you must compare the noun it modifies to determine it's usage.​


For example, the Pharisees of the day, already influenced by pagan concepts on hell, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it "eirgmos aidios "(eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin "aionion kolasin" (age-long chastisement). We see the difference between Christ and the self-righteous Pharisees. As I referred in my above post, Christ never used the common language the Pharisees used, but why wouldn't he have used "timorion" which did mean punishment and "aidios" non ending time, the people would have no doubt and it would match the non-ending punishment taught by the Pharisees.The Pharisees were wrong, but they did use proper wording to explain their belief in non ending punishment and it was understood by all the people. Why would Christ use totally different wording, just to confuse everyone?

Study the many works of Josephus, Philo, the classic scholars of the period, they used aion to refer to a period of time, not non ending.

Classic scholars know that the pagan hell was early copied by the Catholic church, and that almost its entire details afterwards entered into the creeds of Catholic and Protestant churches, needed tools in their minds to control the people. The church soon left the principles of love and entered into a cruel period where the church tortured people in God's name. Christianity became forever "lol" corrupted..
 
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elopez

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I think I pretty well explained it in my above post. Again, aion comes from the Hebrew word olam, both have the same meaning, but we know olam used in the OT didn't mean eternal in most cases, unless it referred to God.
And in the NT we arrive at aionios, which is used several times throughout the NT. When it is used, it's more significant meaning is without end, such as in

God's existence (Romans 16:26)

God's power (1 Timothy 6:16)

The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)

Salvation (Hebrews 5:9)

Even the sin that is unforgiven is described as such in Mark 3:29. If the sin cannot be forgiven, there must be a state of existence in which the soul experiences unrelenting punishment.
 
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OzSpen

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If 'eternal' does not mean without end, then when it is used in relation to God, by the same logic of course, it means that his existence could come to an end.

It seems to me that dismantles Richelles unbiblical theory.
Amen!:thumbsup:

Oz
 
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tankerG

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If you're going to take that logic from the author named Richelle, please be advised that the same word "eternal" is used for both "eternal punishment and eternal life" in Matthew 25:46. If the author is claiming that the word "eternal" punishment might mean "temporary" then by that logic "eternal life" would mean the same thing.

However, the word eternal does mean "unending".
Strong's Greek: 166. αἰώνιος (aiónios) -- agelong, eternal

Good point!:thumbsup:

I guess the righteous will reach some point in the future where God will announce, "OK, this age is over! Time to clear out of heaven!"^_^
 
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seeingeyes

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For example, the Pharisees of the day, already influenced by pagan concepts on hell, according to Josephus, regarded the penalty of sin as torment without end, and they stated the doctrine in unambiguous terms. They called it "eirgmos aidios "(eternal imprisonment) and timorion adialeipton (endless torment), while our Lord called the punishment of sin "aionion kolasin" (age-long chastisement). We see the difference between Christ and the self-righteous Pharisees. As I referred in my above post, Christ never used the common language the Pharisees used, but why wouldn't he have used "timorion" which did mean punishment and "aidios" non ending time, the people would have no doubt and it would match the non-ending punishment taught by the Pharisees.The Pharisees were wrong, but they did use proper wording to explain their belief in non ending punishment and it was understood by all the people. Why would Christ use totally different wording, just to confuse everyone?

This is interesting... Can you recommend a good book for 'lay' folk about this? (It's all Greek to me. ;))
 
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Armistead14

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And in the NT we arrive at aionios, which is used several times throughout the NT. When it is used, it's more significant meaning is without end, such as in

God's existence (Romans 16:26)

God's power (1 Timothy 6:16)

The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)

Salvation (Hebrews 5:9)

Even the sin that is unforgiven is described as such in Mark 3:29. If the sin cannot be forgiven, there must be a state of existence in which the soul experiences unrelenting punishment.

Your first points

God's existence (Romans 16:26)
God's power (1 Timothy 6:16)
The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)

Here aion is referring to an immortal God. I guess no one is reading my long post, so I will state clearly again, we have to study how the adjective modifies the noun, It should be clear to all that aion isn't used to define either an age or endless time, it is a common greek adjective that was used to express both in scripture and secular literature as well, it's usage determined by the noun it modifies.....You can either agree or not, but it is on you to prove it must mean eternal in all cases, but that is biblically impossible, in fact, 4/5ths of the time it is used to express "for an age". I await your reply...

The sin against the spirit must be understood. It's a difficult and confusing verse to many people, self included, opinions vary amongst most denominations and scholars. Is it a sin that will truly never be forgiven for all time?

Most Christians understand the doctrine of the ages, that God is working with man in periods, ages or more commonly referred to as dispensations. I'll qoute CL Shofield

"The Scriptures divide time (by which is meant the entire period from the creation of Adam to the "new heaven and a new earth" of Rev. 21: 1) into seven unequal periods, usually called dispensations (Eph. 3:2), although these periods are also called ages (Eph. 2:7) and days, as in "day of the Lord."

Yes, Christians debate the period of ages, some think seven, some five, another debate.

Another confusing point is latin and enlish often incorrecly translate "aion" "age" with world, so christians wrongly fall into the notion that world refers to life now and the world to come refers to life after death. In doing so they totally miss the point that Christ is working with us in ages, not just two worlds, life and afterlife.

Regarding this verse, the Greek word aion signifys age here, as it often does in the New Testament . This age means the Jewish one, and 'the age to come' means that age under the Christian dispensation. I don't believe anyone that commits this sin would even seek forgivness during these ages of life on earth, but nor do I believe they will be tortured in the last age "God's immoratal/eternal Kingdom"

The end of the world/age here took place during the time of the apostles. 'Now once in the end of the world hath he [Christ] appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.'--Heb. ix:26. 'Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples; and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.' I Cor. x:11." The gross error IMO, is that most view the world to come as eternity {last age} and not the next age to come, the Christian dispensation. The other issue is "never", the problem is "never" isn't part of the greek language.

Each gospel explains this sin with minor differences, but the more proper greek translation from the Diaglott is

"It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming age"

"Whoever may blaspheme the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness to the age, but is exposed to aionian (age-lasting) judgment."

Mark's language "hath never forgiveness" should read "has not forgiveness to the age,"

I think it also possibly all connects to a bigger point, the expression of force used more to express the serious of this sin, not that it would be unforgivable throughout all eternity. We like to use "unpardonable" here in the eternal sense, but then other sins become unpardonable as well:
For instance, we could make the same issue with Matther 6:15

“if you do not forgive others, neither will your father forgive your trespasses”

If we take Matthew at face value, not forgiving others would also be an unpardonable sin, because it clearly states God will offer no forgiveness for those that don't forgive. Think about it, if you as a Christian had a loved one murdered, what if you couldn't forgive right away, what happened if you died before you forgave, would Christ not forgive you and condemn you to hell, would salvation be lost? We could take many verses and make them unpardonable using the same logic as we do with the sin against the spirit.

Sin is serious, but I truly don't believe there is any sin that in the eternal sense that grace cannot deal with, the mass of scripture seems to agree with this. However, that doesn't mean God will not judge, punish, or correct sin as he works with man in the ages, but after the judgment or correction, when all sin is put away, EVERY knee will bow and praise God.
 
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Armistead14

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Armistead ... very good points. I'm just starting to understand this about aion. Its interesting that people aren't really meditating on what you have written and understanding it.

Most people skip over long post, I have been guilty of that myself.:D
 
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32L

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Armistead,

I wonder if people are skipping over the long post, or if they refuse to acknowledge what you wrote, since to do so is to consider altering one's belief in the nature of "damnation". Reconsideration requires fundamentally altering one's views on a very core tenet of religious faith.

By the way...
how does one know in what way the adjective and noun work together to denote either a finite period or an infinite span of time? is it a question of a prefix or suffix agreeing in a certain way? the words written in a certain tense? something else?
I don't expect specifics, since I have no nothing of Greek, just a general explanation. Thanks.
 
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elopez

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Immortal is what the human soul is. God is eternal, everlasting in existense, which is different than being simply "immortal" as the former implies no beginning, while the latter does not. The word 'immortal' has a different greek word than what is used here in those verses relating to the divine, which I am sure you must be aware of. The greek for "immortal" is "athanatos" instead of the greek "aion" or "aionos."

It is true that the greek for "eternal" comes from the root "aion" which means "age," but just because a root means age does not mean every subsequently word from the root means age, as it is with God in the Romans verse and the others I qouted.

Like I said, if you're comortable maintaining God is not eternal and could possibly cease to exist by saying the Romans verse doesn't indicate the everlasting nature of God, that is up to you.

Either way I am not claiming all verses that have the word 'eternal' do mean without end, I said the ones that I qouted do mean just that, which I am sure says something of your 4/5s meaning they do not, of which is actually on you to show.
 
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Armistead14

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Armistead,

I wonder if people are skipping over the long post, or if they refuse to acknowledge what you wrote, since to do so is to consider altering one's belief in the nature of "damnation". Reconsideration requires fundamentally altering one's views on a very core tenet of religious faith.

By the way...
how does one know in what way the adjective and noun work together to denote either a finite period or an infinite span of time? is it a question of a prefix or suffix agreeing in a certain way? the words written in a certain tense? something else?
I don't expect specifics, since I have no nothing of Greek, just a general explanation. Thanks.

Well, I admit it's very difficult to alter ones core faith, but sadly most grasp to the core doctrines of the denomination they happen to get saved in and hold on to them for dear life.


I don't know there is a simple answer, but I'll try. It may seem difficult to denote when aion is used to denote a finite or an infinite span of time, The only way aionion can mean "never ending" or "eternal" is if its aion noun form means eternal/nonending, in reference to that which is immortal. The adjective aionion would then tell us of that which pertains to eternity. Aionios is simply the adjective form of "aion," and would mean an age pertaining to _______ (fill in the blank). The key is understanding how God works with man in the ages, mistranslated as eternity by ET believers.

Etymology is of limited use in the aion/aionios question because they are translations of the older Hebrew word "olam". When we look for meaning in ancient words the goal is to understand what the speaker's thoughts were, in the words, in the time when they spoke.

We must also compare secula r works of the period, where aion often meant simply life. For instance

Hippocrates. "A human aión is a seven days matter."
Empedocles, An earthly body deprived of happy life "aionos "

In fact, aion is classic literature, almost always meant life or a period of time, it was hardly used to promote endless time, none that I'm aware of.

From the 5th century B.C. to the 5th century A.D. aion simply meant an age, perhaps as short as a lifetine. Aion as meaning eternal didn't even start creeping in to some of the lexicons until the 8th century, and even then it wasn't a dogma but just the evolution of the language since the Church was mostly Latinized by then. It really wasn't until the 15th and 16th centuries that aion dogmatically came into the lexicons to express all durations of time from brief to endless, so again you must refer to how the word was used in the period it was used connecting to the subject matter.

More later, busy day.....
 
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pshun2404

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Furthermore, "aion" specifically refers to (according to Richelle) a finite period of time, i.e., not one that is everlasting.

No sorry it does not...eternal means without end (and when referring to God it also implies without beginning...God IS)

Everlasting and forever both are time terms. Time has no place in Eternity...eternity is unending NOW, while everlasting lasts only so long as there is an ever.

In a lot of languages these terms eternal and everlasting are implied to be synonymous but this is not correct....in the eternal there is no Chronos movement from a past, through a present, into a future. Chronos is a quality of the Universe...

Just my $.02

Paul
 
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