Why am I going to Hell in your eyes?

Zeena · Jan 30, 2007

Confess said:
Like I said earlier. The truth of God is not revealed to men, but the fact that there is A GOD is in the conscience of men.

Ecclesiastes 3:11
He hath made everything beautiful in its time: also he hath set eternity in their heart, yet so that man cannot find out the work that God hath done from the beginning even to the end.

christsblood · Jan 30, 2007

Deleted due to op not wanting to here certain opinions.

Umaro · Jan 30, 2007

christsblood said:
Let's say your son is a great person except every time you speak to him he punches you in the face. At some you point you tell him never punch me again and respect me and I'll leave you everything when I pass away. Continue to punch me and you are on your own. He continues to punch you. Do you honor your word and make him find his own home and support himself or do you let him have your home and inheritence? I have gathered in my readings that God really doesn't like being punched in the face. I have no idea who may or may not stop punching so I try not to tell people what the future holds for them.

You're analogy is flawed because my son would have evidence I exist. Let's rework it so that He has never seen or heard from me, and all he knows about my wishes are given to him on a piece of paper written by my neighbor. There would be no reason to listen to me, and even if he didn't, I'm not going to stick him in jail for eternity.

PaulAckermann · Jan 30, 2007

Umaro said:
I consider myself a good person, I have my personal inner peace, I keep all the morals that one should, I don't lie much, don't do any drugs, I'm not promiscuous (big fan of chivalry), I take care of my family, I support homosexuality, I support evolution, think prayer has no place in schools, and I reject all gods and all religions because of my reasoning and logic.

Umaro said:
People tell me all the time I'll burn in hell for an eternity if I don't accept their particular god. Is that really enough of an offense for eternal damnation?

I am a Catholic and there have been many people say to me that I going to Hell. Does it bother me? Not at all. I am secure in my beliefs that it does not bother me.

Evidently, you do not seem to be that secure in your own beliefs (or non-beliefs). If you were, you would not care what people thought of you. But I think that it bothers you because deep down you are afraid that they may be right.

So the issue is not why others feel that you are going to Hell, but that deep down you feel that they may be right, and that is what bothers you.

Fortuna · Jan 30, 2007

Umaro said:
I consider myself a good person, I have my personal inner peace, I keep all the morals that one should, I don't lie much, don't do any drugs, I'm not promiscuous (big fan of chivalry), I take care of my family, I support homosexuality, I support evolution, think prayer has no place in schools, and I reject all gods and all religions because of my reasoning and logic.

People tell me all the time I'll burn in hell for an eternity if I don't accept their particular god. Is that really enough of an offense for eternal damnation?

Hi Umaro!
Well, I guess I will put my 2 cents in. I was recently, Nov. 2007, converted to Christianity.

I believe only God will judge you or I.

I thought I was a good person. I thought I never sinned. I thought that my way was the best way.
I was a Buddhist for about 30 years, Kemetic for 6 years and various other philosophies and religions in beteween.

If you want proof God exists all you have to do (with sincerity) is say " God, I am yours, save me." With that phrase will come proof and a lot of changes in the direction of your life. I am not saying they will all feel like good changes, but they will all benefit your life. I have had to take a real hard, unpleasant look at myself and my life.

I realized that the IDOL I was worshiping was me. I was doing it all MY way and thought how grand I was. I had never done anything bad to anyone but I had never done anything really good for anyone either. mOst bad things I did to myself or because I made bad choices. So much for my free will.

I could never understand why my life was just not as peaceful and happy as I thought it should be. I used to say to myself, "I am a good person, why is this bad thing happening to me?" I did not understand that I was disobeying God and the commandments. I knew the commandments, most of them, but I did not know that they meant Thought, Word and Deed.
Not knowing this, I did not know I was doing anything against God.

Since my conversion, however, I have seen many miracles in my life, some small and some HUGE! All were manifested phenomena, either physically, spiritually or materially. I will say that I am grateful for all of them.

To know God, takes a lifetime for some. And, it takes inviting him into your life.

I challenge you to experiment by inviting him into your life with a sincere desire to know the truth and his truth.

By the way, I would really discourage only reading the bible on one's own. Our interpretations are just the same as us following ourselves which I believe to be a big mistake. I would seek the guidance of clergy, bible study and others in bible fellowship to truly understand scripture. A study of ancient history does not hurt either.

I have made mistakes in my interpretation, but I have learned from them and can understand where I was wrong. There is always room for improvement.

Also, by the way, purgatory is mostly the belief of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) so that is why there are those here who said there is not a purgatory.

Blessing, Fortuna

Martin Luther said: "Reason is the devil's harlot."

Just thought I would throw that in, cause it seems true sometimes. I like faith better than reason, I can count on it more.

Umaro · Jan 30, 2007

PaulAckermann said:
I am a Catholic and there have been many people say to me that I going to Hell. Does it bother me? Not at all. I am secure in my beliefs that it does not bother me.

Evidently, you do not seem to be that secure in your own beliefs (or non-beliefs). If you were, you would not care what people thought of you. But I think that it bothers you because deep down you are afraid that they may be right.

So the issue is not why others feel that you are going to Hell, but that deep down you feel that they may be right, and that is what bothers you.

Sigh, I keep having to say this.

I'm not here because I question my beliefs, I'm quite comfortable where I am, I seek nothing and I'm genuinely happy. I don't particularly care what people think is going to happen to me or not, but since I hear it so often, I thought I'd ask why out of curiosity. I'm not worried they might be right in the least, and I'm not saying that out of denial.

Umaro · Jan 30, 2007

Fortuna said:
Hi Umaro!
Well, I guess I will put my 2 cents in. I was recently, Nov. 2007, converted to Christianity.

I believe only God will judge you or I.

I thought I was a good person. I thought I never sinned. I thought that my way was the best way.
I was a Buddhist for about 30 years, Kemetic for 6 years and various other philosophies and religions in beteween.

If you want proof God exists all you have to do (with sincerity) is say " God, I am yours, save me." With that phrase will come proof and a lot of changes in the direction of your life. I am not saying they will all feel like good changes, but they will all benefit your life. I have had to take a real hard, unpleasant look at myself and my life.

I realized that the IDOL I was worshiping was me. I was doing it all MY way and thought how grand I was. I had never done anything bad to anyone but I had never done anything really good for anyone either. mOst bad things I did to myself or because I made bad choices. So much for my free will.

I could never understand why my life was just not as peaceful and happy as I thought it should be. I used to say to myself, "I am a good person, why is this bad thing happening to me?" I did not understand that I was disobeying God and the commandments. I knew the commandments, most of them, but I did not know that they meant Thought, Word and Deed.
Not knowing this, I did not know I was doing anything against God.

Since my conversion, however, I have seen many miracles in my life, some small and some HUGE! All were manifested phenomena, either physically, spiritually or materially. I will say that I am grateful for all of them.

To know God, takes a lifetime for some. And, it takes inviting him into your life.

I challenge you to experiment by inviting him into your life with a sincere desire to know the truth and his truth.

By the way, I would really discourage only reading the bible on one's own. Our interpretations are just the same as us following ourselves which I believe to be a big mistake. I would seek the guidance of clergy, bible study and others in bible fellowship to truly understand scripture. A study of ancient history does not hurt either.

I have made mistakes in my interpretation, but I have learned from them and can understand where I was wrong. There is always room for improvement.

Also, by the way, purgatory is mostly the belief of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) so that is why there are those here who said there is not a purgatory.

Blessing, Fortuna

Martin Luther said: "Reason is the devil's harlot."

Just thought I would throw that in, cause it seems true sometimes. I like faith better than reason, I can count on it more.

I tried calling on God a few weeks ago in a topic called "Why won't God answer me?" and nothing happened at all. Most will probably say I wasn't sincere, but I'm always sincere in the pursuit of knowledge, as a realist. Looking back on it, I suppose I said purgatory because originally I was raised as a Roman Catholic, so I guess it really is hard to shake off indoctrination even when reason says otherwise. That line from Martin Luther pretty much sums up one of the huge flaws I see in that religion tells us not to question. I prefer reason over faith, because it has a basis in reality, and can be shown through logic.

Zeena · Jan 30, 2007

Deuteronomy 29:4
Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Job 9:11
Lo, he goeth by me, and I see him not: he passeth on also, but I perceive him not.

Fortuna · Feb 1, 2007

Umaro said:
I tried calling on God a few weeks ago in a topic called "Why won't God answer me?" and nothing happened at all. Most will probably say I wasn't sincere, but I'm always sincere in the pursuit of knowledge, as a realist. Looking back on it, I suppose I said purgatory because originally I was raised as a Roman Catholic, so I guess it really is hard to shake off indoctrination even when reason says otherwise. That line from Martin Luther pretty much sums up one of the huge flaws I see in that religion tells us not to question. I prefer reason over faith, because it has a basis in reality, and can be shown through logic.

I did not say "Do not question." Reason is important, however, the mind can play tricks. Things are not always as they seem and some things just need to be taken on faith. When reason fails me, I look to faith and prayer. Your reasoning may be completely different than someone else's too. It is unreliable. I am very logical and I can in no way explain the miracles that I have seen happen through logic or reason. How does one explain physical afflictions that someone has had for years suddenly disappearing after prayer? How does one explain the appearance of financial help that was never sought or expected but prayed for? How does one explain the peace of mind from prayer that did not exist when prayer was absent?

When you prayed to God, did you surrender to him and ask to be saved? Maybe he is waiting for you to come to him instead of you expecting him to come to you and do your bidding. God did not force me to come to him and did not come until I praised and surrendered to him. Once my ego and arrogance were out of the way, he came to me often and still does.

There are things happening in the world today that defy reason. And, reason can sometimes stand in the way of meditating on God and believing the unbelievable.
Did you ever watch a show called Ripley's Believe It or Not? Many things happen that cannot so easily be explained.

I have nearly died several times, once when I was 13 and almost died from a gangrene appendix, once when someone pulled a gun on me another a knife, once in traffic when a van spun out in front of me on the highway and no other cars were around me to rear-end me or hit me as I sat stalled in the middle of a busy metropolitan freeway, once when i was near death with a ruptured hernia that may have caused a resection of my intestines, put myself in dangerous situations such as; I have been raped, beaten, done illicit drugs and alcohol excessively, been promiscuous (a child of the 60's), walked through dangerous neigborhoods in the middle of the night without being harmed but could have been, swam across ice cold rivers while intoxicated and nearly drowned, been robbed and taken advantage of often.

God would not have saved me if he did not have faith in me that I would come to him. It was a lot of hard work to get me to him, but I converted Nov. 2007.

Stop waiting for proof and get your own proof. Those of little faith and unbelievers usually need to have their eyes and ears opened. If you give up so easily how will youever know?

We used to have a saying in Buddhism that I always have liked:
"If it takes 13 days to travel to Kamakura, and one only travels for 12, how will one see the moon over the beautiful city?" paraphrased, of course, however, if we don't go the distance how can we receive a reward whatever it may be?
If you are on a quest to find God, don't give up and he will not give up on you.

BLessings, Fortuna

GorillaJ · Feb 2, 2007

Fortuna, would you mind elaborating on some of these supposed miracles? I'm curious as to what you maintain is unexplainable and an undeniable sign of God. I'm reading over the examples you gave and find myself unable to not come up with a reasonable explanation.

Fortuna · Feb 2, 2007

GorillaJ said:
Fortuna, would you mind elaborating on some of these supposed miracles? I'm curious as to what you maintain is unexplainable and an undeniable sign of God. I'm reading over the examples you gave and find myself unable to not come up with a reasonable explanation.

I would be happy to elaborate.

First of all, my better half has been plagued by psoriasis, a bad skin disease since the early 80's. This is a particularly distressing disease because the skin thickens, turns chalky and itches horribly. He was miserable because he had it over 80% of his body, in his ears, his hair, genital areas, legs, arms, face, back etc. He would not be able to sleep and was constantly tortured. He would break out in these terrible sores as well that upon healing would turn into large scabs and have left many scars.
I prayed to God to heal him and now it is virtually cleared up except for an occasional very small patch here or there from time to time.

He also has diabetes and his blood sugar count would sometimes be as high as 600, the norm is below 100. He was very much in danger of going into a coma.
I prayed for a few months about this and the last time he went for labs, the doctor told him that if he did not know better he would think that the diabetes never existed. He is now virtually cured and does not have any problems with it. This again, was an answer to my prayers. I literally prayed for months about this.

He also has PTSD from having been in two wars, Vietnam and the Gulf, he can now sleep peacefully at night because of our prayers and the fact that he is attending church and bible study with me and I did not even have to twist his arm. LOL He looks forward to going. Another miracle the way I see it.

I was not even sure myself in the beginning until the doctors confirmed these things. I was amazed but really grateful.

Since moving, we had money problems and had to eat cornmeal for weeks on end because it was cheap, no meat, just cornmeal. I prayed that he would be able to get a job where he would be happy and able to help our financial situation. We live in a very small town and there are mostly only jobs in the fast food industry and Walmart, he was able to find a job where he could use the experience of his background and be paid a good amount for it. Other people that worked for this man never lasted more than a month, he has been there over one year. God answered our prayers and now we can eat good food.

Our truck was demolished in a hail storm and we ended up finding a truck right away and paid well under book for it. Another prayer answered.

Some years ago I was diagnosed with clinical depression. I prayed to God to give me peace of mind and and a mind free from worry and depression. He has answered my prayers. I no longer worry, but leave it up to God to help us knowing I can trust him to always come through.

Some time ago, we were being stalked by someone and threatened. I prayed that this person would find happiness and leave us alone. I prayed that they be forgiven their trespasses against us, healed spiritually and the harrassment stopped.

Friends of mine were being threatened by drug dealers in their neighborhood, (my former city) and I prayed to God that for the good of all that this person be stopped and that no harm would come to my friends. Unfortunately, the perpetrator was slightly injured in an accident, but never again bothered my friends, who by the way, had nothing to do with the accident. They were miles away.

There have been many more miracles, smaller, but meaningful to us and a sign that God cares and is looking out for us.

He works miracles for us all the time. It is a miracle that I came back to church after 40 years. I had no intention of ever becoming a Christian until God, through his mercy, showed me he cared and helped us. He did not have to save me, but I guess he thought I was worth it and I am very grateful.

I hope you develop a relationship with God because you will be amazed as I was when those prayers started being answered after years of silence when I was practicing my pagan beliefs and getting nowhere with my pagan prayers.

Well, if you have any other questions, I would be happy to answer them. I wish you the best.

Blessings, Fortuna

P.S. There are no known medical cures for the afflictions I described. Treatments for psoriasis are dangerous UV doses or injections for arthritis that can have serious negative side effects. People who suffer from this disease also have psoratic arthritis which can be very crippling. And, by the way, he has the blood pressure of a 20 year old now too, he is over 50. A bonus. People can only be healed by Jesus. These miracles are all the proof I need.

GorillaJ · Feb 2, 2007

I see. I'm not convinced that any of those events are the direct result of the interference of god as opposed to good luck, the wonders of the human body, and modern medicine, but it's good to see that you were able to overcome your problems, as were your significant others. Thanks for telling me more.

heron · Feb 2, 2007

They weren't given to her for proof, though. She didn't need to realize His existence at the time, but His concern.

It's very hard to use miracles as proof of anything these days, because we are all so skeptical and have seen so many amazing things. A major decision about life should not be based on miracles anyway. Well, I suppose everyone has their pivotal moments.

I am as offended by Luther's statement as you, and I used to be a Lutheran. If God scoffed at reason, our universe would be one big messed up project.

Isa 1:18
"Come now, and let us reason together," says the Lord.

Job 23:7
There the upright would reason with Him; and I would be delivered forever from my Judge.

Pr 20:5, 18, 25
A plan in the heart of a man is like deep water, but a man of understanding draws it out. Prepare plans by consultation, and make war by wise guidance.

It is a trap for a man to say rashly, "It is holy!" And after the vows to make inquiry.

In this thread, we are looking at all sorts of issues surrounding God, without looking at God. His heart is to care for us, not to blast us with proof and sort the duds from the sellable ones.

Zeena · Feb 2, 2007

GorillaJ said:
I see. I'm not convinced that any of those events are the direct result of the interference of god as opposed to good luck, the wonders of the human body, and modern medicine, but it's good to see that you were able to overcome your problems, as were your significant others. Thanks for telling me more.

Fortuna believes it's from God, and who are you to say otherwise! Hrmm?

Were you there?
Did you see His hand at work?
Tell me if you know!

The Virginian · Feb 2, 2007

Umaro said:
I consider myself a good person, I have my personal inner peace, I keep all the morals that one should, I don't lie much, don't do any drugs, I'm not promiscuous (big fan of chivalry), I take care of my family, I support homosexuality, I support evolution, think prayer has no place in schools, and I reject all gods and all religions because of my reasoning and logic.

People tell me all the time I'll burn in hell for an eternity if I don't accept their particular god. Is that really enough of an offense for eternal damnation?

If, in point of fact, you "...reject all gods because of my reasoning and logic..." then to ask someone to answer why it is that you're going to hell, is altogether superfluous, and a totally useless and unanswerable query. For, you've already stated your denial of Almighty God, and of any god whatsoever. Your opening salvo also indicates that you (whether you say so or not), have placed your mental faculties in a state above that of any divine being. Therefore; why should I bother trying to answer? Why should I give such a one as yourself, being of greater faculties than us all, fodder for my own ridicule?

a servant of God

GorillaJ · Feb 2, 2007

I am afraid, Virginian, that in your rush to belittle Umaro you came to an incorrect conclusion about him. He does not believe he is going to Hell; he does not believe it exists; he has not claimed that those who believe in god are possessed of substandard faculties; he has, in fact, said nothing negative about you or yours and yet you still rush to criticize him. A queer thing, that, one which I will most likely come to my own conclusions about in time.

I will attempt to clarify his question to the best of my own abilities, using my own (thankfully) not-yet-mocked faculties: Umaro wishes to know why not believing in God is enough for him to be condemned to Hell. He wishes to know why, despite why he does the things he quotes (which I think most will agree are good things, things to admire), he will be sent to torment everlasting upon his death in the eyes of Christians. He wants to know if simply not believing is truly so atrocious a crime.

Zeena · Feb 2, 2007

GorillaJ said:
Umaro wishes to know why not believing in God is enough for him to be condemned to Hell. He wishes to know why, despite why he does the things he quotes (which I think most will agree are good things, things to admire), he will be sent to torment everlasting upon his death in the eyes of Christians. He wants to know if simply not believing is truly so atrocious a crime.

Because only Jesus is in Heaven, and only He belongs there! We are aliens to Heaven as much as Heaven is alien to us!

Those who recieve the LIFE of Jesus enter Heaven by that Life, not by what they may or may not do down here, but by that Life!

God's Life!
Jesus ' Life!
Heaven's Life!

Raph · Feb 2, 2007

Umaro said:
I consider myself a good person, I have my personal inner peace, I keep all the morals that one should, I don't lie much, don't do any drugs, I'm not promiscuous (big fan of chivalry), I take care of my family, I support homosexuality, I support evolution, think prayer has no place in schools, and I reject all gods and all religions because of my reasoning and logic.

People tell me all the time I'll burn in hell for an eternity if I don't accept their particular god. Is that really enough of an offense for eternal damnation?

Raph said:
Flowerpower711, the reason why good people are going to hell is because humanity (as a race) poisoned (some kind of metaphysical genetic/spiritual poison) themselves when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The result was a physical/spiritual dead and separation from God not only for them but for all their decedents as well. Hell is basically separation from God. We all know this because each one of us, will one day experience physical death. God's original intension was for humanity to live eternally with Him but our ancestors messed this up.

Now God had a problem on his hands because he liked being with people but all of them are separated from him by their physical/spiritual condition. God needed to fix humanity and he did this by infusing humanity metaphysically with his own genetic/spiritual material by becoming a human being .... that person is Jesus. While in physical form, Jesus died but came back from the dead, creating a new genetic/spiritual lineage for humanity. A lineage based on his metaphysical code rather than on Adams. While humanity can't bond itself physically with Jesus into God's lineage we can bond spiritually with him. Jesus joined with humanity at the physical level so that humanity can join with him at a spiritual level.

It is some kind of metaphysical adoption which allows those born physically into Adam's genetic/spiritual family to leave it and become part of God's family. This is why many Christian's call themselves Sons of God or Born Again. They are saved from going to Hell (being separated from God) because they are part of God's spiritual heritage. They will not experience the spiritual death as those of Adam and Eve's lineage will.

God is a loving God because he took on human flesh, endured the pain of this world and paid the ultimate price to redeem us on the cross. May people say that they love us but how may would endure torture and death just to be with us. Jesus did and if this is not love then nothing is.

I must say that before I became a Christian, I had no real interest in any religion at all. I though it was all garbage. I did not know it at the time but I had an encounter with the Holy Spirit which lead me in time to receive Jesus. Up to this point, my spiritual experiences were subjective until I was reading in the book of John where Jesus tells his disciples that he has to die and go to the Father so that the Holy Spirit would come a dwell in every believer. That is what I experience. The dwelling of the Holy Spirit in me is a real, a daily tangible presence of God. He dwells in me. I am not the only person on this planet to experience the presence of God within them. There is a great host of witnesses to the reality of God. I do not believe in God, I know God personally, why would I seek any other. No religion can offer you this. You too can know God if you put your faith in Jesus.

.

Umaro · Feb 2, 2007

The Virginian said:
If, in point of fact, you "...reject all gods because of my reasoning and logic..." then to ask someone to answer why it is that you're going to hell, is altogether superfluous, and a totally useless and unanswerable query. For, you've already stated your denial of Almighty God, and of any god whatsoever. Your opening salvo also indicates that you (whether you say so or not), have placed your mental faculties in a state above that of any divine being. Therefore; why should I bother trying to answer? Why should I give such a one as yourself, being of greater faculties than us all, fodder for my own ridicule?

a servant of God

No offence, but posts like this really make me question if people actually read the thread before responding. I have said several times that I am not asking because of fear, or out of attempt to mock. I have directly said that after hearing so many times that I'm going to hell, I just wanted to ask why. Thats it. No hidden motives, no fear of where I'll end up, and no plans to alter my beliefs. Just. Curiosity.

rebelEnigma · Feb 2, 2007

I consider myself a good person, I have my personal inner peace, I keep all the morals that one should, I don't lie much, don't do any drugs, I'm not promiscuous (big fan of chivalry), I take care of my family, I support homosexuality, I support evolution, think prayer has no place in schools, and I reject all gods and all religions because of my reasoning and logic.

People tell me all the time I'll burn in hell for an eternity if I don't accept their particular god. Is that really enough of an offense for eternal damnation?

One's goodness alone is not enough to save them. But just like one act of thievery makes one a thief, one act of sin makes one a sinner. And the Bible says that no sin will enter Heaven.

Salvation is a free gift. It is a personal choice that one makes to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. But yes, if any man does not accept Jesus, they will be eternally separated from God. This is not what I say, but what the Father says. There must be not even a hint of sin in your life for you to enter Heaven. This is where accpeting Christ comes in: Christ died so that you would not have to. His blood was shed as the Law demanded, as Justice demanded. By His death, we are given life (He loved us before we even knew of Him), thus clearing us in the eyes of God of all our sin (making us pure of all sin).
You say that you are a good person, and you probably are. But you also said that you do not lie much. You agree that lying is a bad thing, but also understand what God said: there must be not even a hint of sin. All it takes is for you to say to God: Lord, I am sinner. I cannot save myself, only you can. I receive your free gift of salvation. Come into my life Lord God. I love you, Lord. Amen.

Why am I going to Hell in your eyes?

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