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Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will.

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Wiccan_Child

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Knowing is not the same as controlling. That you haven't made the choice yet does not prevent Him from knowing what choice you will make.
Indeed. But you have not answered my question: can I pick box B?

It's a huge perspective difference. We see and experience time in a linear way so it is hard to get our minds around the idea that somone knowing future events isn't necessarily controlling them.
Timelessness is not a hard concept (at least, not for us theoretical physicists ). I just do not see why it is ascribed to omniscience, nor how it solves the dilemma.

If you can't, or choose not to see the relevance of the huge perspective difference, and how foreknoweledge by one party has zero bearing on the freeness of the choice of another party, then continuing is pointless.
Hardly: the entire point of this thread is for you (and those who believe like you) to reconcile the dilemma. From my point of view, I cannot see how true free will can coexist with true omniscience.

Since you don't have the same knoweledge, you do, from your perspective, have more than one choice. Like someone else just said only in a different way, our perception of freedom is our reality.
The scenario explicitly deals with whether our free will is true, or if it is an illusion. My conclusion is that if true omniscience exists, then our free will is an illusion: we only appear to have a choice.

Our hand is not forced, but neither is it granted free will.
 
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elcapitan

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To use your analogy, God not only knows all the answers on the test, he knows which ones are the correct ones. If God didn't know the correct answers, his knowledge would be limited and thus He wouldn't be omniscient.

In the same way, God can know everything you will ever do, but that does not make it what you will do.
It is what you will do, because it is what you will do. An entity knowing that or not does not change it.
It is what you will do because it is what you will do, but because God knows in advance, "what you will do" cannot change. God doesn't "determine" the future, necessarily, but the fact that He knows the future means that it is determined.
 
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dayhiker

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Wiccan .. you can pick either box ... but you can only pick one box as you have said. Time doesn't allow you to change your mind. You live time once just like I do, you will pick what you pick at that time as you will only live that time once. If you pick A, then you can't live the time again and pick B. If you pick B you can't live the time over and pick A.
 
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HuntingMan

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Interesting post. It does seem to be flawed logically, tho.

If the omniscient Being knows the future that you WILL pick box A by your own free choice, it has nothing to do with His controlling it.
Its not that you 'cant' pick box B....its simply that YOU CHOSE to pick box A....the omniscient Being simply having known the fact.

*IF* you were to have picked B instead, He would have known that as well.

Now, there is another aspect of this that your thread title itself, minus the OP, seems to have hit on.

"Why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will."

that in and of itself is quite a statement and far deeper, in my opinion, than what you posted in the OP itself.

True omniscience would imply foreknowledge without having to actually control the outcome.
If 'free will' doesnt exist, then the outcome is controlled and thus true omniscience would not be the case....it would simply be the being knowing that something would happen, then directly controlling things so that it does happen.

When I read the title of the thread, it really said a lot more to me than the post did once I read it.

 
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elcapitan

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But then all events "inside the cube" would then be determined, and were determined from the beginning. If God can move to any point along the time line and see what choice we make, our future is determined.

Also, it doesn't matter whether God is inside the cube or outside it; if He is omniscient, he can see everything in it.
 
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elcapitan

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Think about that some more, because you obviously don't get it.

True omniscience would imply foreknowledge without having to actually control the outcome.
That's not what omniscience is. Get a dictionary.

edit: I should have quoted you here instead
If 'free will' doesnt exist, then the outcome is controlled and thus true omniscience would not be the case.
That demonstrates your misundertanding of "omniscience."
My apologies.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Perhaps. But I am discussing omniscience in and of itself.

Your argument would be much better constructed based on the premise of a truly Sovereign entity in correlation with a being (obviously under the entity's sovereignty) who at the same time has the coexisting trait of "free will".
Why? I am interested in omniscient entities, soverign or not. I see no reason to restrict our analysis to just those entities who are omniscient, soverign, and timeless.

Omniscience in no way forces one to act.
I agree.

My argument does not mention control, and I explicitly mention that my hand is not forced. I am 'free' to choose.

I disagree. Omniscience does not necessarily imply superiority. True, it's an extraordinary trait to have, but not necessarily a superior one.

This is akin to one of my two conclusions: that free will is an illusion. It appears that we have the freedom of choice, but in reality it is entirely predictable, even by non-omniscients.

I disagree. You yourself limit your choices to those four by only considering your actions with regards to which box(es) get(s) picked. There are, in fact, an infinite number of choices available to you: do you move to pick A, then reconsider? Etc.
The omniscient is merely an observer. No indication is given. It has imposed nothing in and of itself, but the consequences of it's existance, and it's foreknowledge, are all-encompassing.

If I had free will in an exhaustive essence I should have no limit to the choices I could make, that would be true free will as you labeled it.
No, it would not. Omnipotence is not true free will. True free will is the ability to make actual choices, instead of the illusion of choice. Your argument is equivocating, and so is fallacious.

The teacher is not omniscient. Your options are limited, but you nevertheless have options. This is the crucial issue in my scenario: do I have options?

My apologies, I assume the phrase 'true free will' was implicitly defined by my talk of free will being an illusion.

Could you define 'soverignity'?

Finally, my argument is not about whether our options are limited, but whether we have them at all.
 
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HuntingMan

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That's not what omniscience is. Get a dictionary.
Firstly, I can do without your nastiness.
And I KNOW what it is....you are erroneous, Im afraid.

Having universal knowledge; knowing all things; infinitely knowing or wise; as, the omniscient God.
dont respond to me again until YOU have understood what the word means.
Infinitely knowing means knowing future events...exactly what my post was presenting.

My guess is youre just one who likes to disagree with folks even if you are clueless as to what is going on
 
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BloodwashedPilgrim

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God knows the answer because He already saw the choice you made. How is that so hard to reconcile?

God's existence outside of time and space gives Him the ability to observe any point; past, present, future at any time. That does not change the fact that we live within both time and space and have to make decisions within that realm.

In essence, God didn't see it before you did it. He witnessed that you did it before the cube reached the point on the line where you actually did.

So, He saw you do it even though you haven't gotten to the point in your time constrained existence where you have done it. This doesn't change that you still did it, "He just got there first".

That is the paradox of our existence inside of time and space and His existence outside of it.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Agreed. What's your point?
 
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elcapitan

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Nowhere in that definition does it say that an omniscient being cannot control the outcome. All it implies is that the omniscient being knows; who controls the outcome is irrelevant.
 
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elcapitan

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I agree with you (mostly)! If God exists outside of time, he can see our "future" actions. The problem is that if he is able to do this, and his knowledge of future points in time is absolute, then the future is determined. To clarify, if we cannot do anything to change the "future events" further down the line, then how can we have free will?
 
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BloodwashedPilgrim

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I agree with you (mostly)! If God exists outside of time, he can see our "future" actions. The problem is that if he is able to do this, and his knowledge of future points in time is absolute, then the future is determined.
No, because to God the future already happened.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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If the omniscient Being knows the future that you WILL pick box A by your own free choice, it has nothing to do with His controlling it.
Agreed. Control is not the issue.

Its not that you 'cant' pick box B....its simply that YOU CHOSE to pick box A....the omniscient Being simply having known the fact.

*IF* you were to have picked B instead, He would have known that as well.
I am confused. From my point of view, can I choose to pick box B? The alleged-omniscient predicts box A (but hasn't told me as such), but can I choose box B if I so wish?

I don't see how. I set up a thought experiment highlighting the logical contradiction that arises when one assume true omniscience and true free will to simultaneously exist.
That is, I explained why a true omniscient cannot coexist with true free will. The thread title seems apt.

True omniscience would imply foreknowledge without having to actually control the outcome.
Agreed. An omniscient knows the outcome of any trial.

If 'free will' doesnt exist, then the outcome is controlled and thus true omniscience would not be the case.
I disagree. If free will doesn't exist, then the outcome of a trial is determined soley by mathematical laws. Given these laws and sufficient information about the present, even non-omniscients could predict the future.

it would simply be the being knowing that something would happen, then directly controlling things so that it does happen.
Equivocation. An omniscient entity that interferes with reality is still omniscient.

When I read the title of the thread, it really said a lot more to me than the post did once I read it.
I apologise for getting your hopes up, but I don't really know what you expected.
 
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BloodwashedPilgrim

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So the future is as immutable as the past! If that's the case, how can we have free will?

P.S. You're just proving the point that I've been arguing.
You could certainly take that stance from God's perspective.

The difference you must understand with our definitions...the future and the past are the same to God in some respects.

I do not see how God seeing that you already made that decision keeps you from making that decision.

You have to understand that there are two entirely different perspectives being observed in this.

Omniscient Being, not confined by time and space exists in all realms simultaneously. Therefore, there really is no past, present or future.

Finite beings, confined by time and space exist in realms singularly, linearly. Therefore, there is past, present and future.

So you could say it this way, to God all things are "present". However, to God all things are "past". Likewise, to God all things are "future".

Our inability to comprehend this doesn't change a thing.

Our inability to comprehend this does, however, force us to make decisions as confined by time.

We don't know which Box God knows we are going to pick. So we still have to choose.

I already said our free will isn't exhaustive, however.

I think perhaps we are agreeing to some extent, but there are things which seem to differ as well. Perhaps, we aren't entirely understanding each other...we are finite after all. Heh, heh.
 
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elcapitan

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It doesn't. It does, however, keep me from making different decisions.

True. The problem is that the our freedom of choice is an illusion, because the outcome is already determined. We may think there is more than one option, but the only real option is the one that has already been determined and known by God.

I already said our free will isn't exhaustive, however.

I think perhaps we are agreeing to some extent, but there are things which seem to differ as well. Perhaps, we aren't entirely understanding each other...we are finite after all. Heh, heh.
Sure. I guess what I'm saying is that if there is always only one option, it's not really free will.
 
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HuntingMan

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Nowhere in that definition does it say that an omniscient being cannot control the outcome. All it implies is that the omniscient being knows; who controls the outcome is irrelevant.
And WHERE did *I* say that the being 'coudnt' do so?
either READ what I HAVE written and respond to that, or I can simply put you on ignore...
 
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elcapitan

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And WHERE did *I* say that the being 'coudnt' do so?
either READ what I HAVE written and respond to that, or I can simply put you on ignore...

First of all, I apologize, I quoted the wrong part of your post. (I have already placed an edit on my origninal comment).

Anyway, this is what I should have quoted:
If 'free will' doesnt exist, then the outcome is controlled and thus true omniscience would not be the case....
 
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