Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

[Clare73]

Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

That of authoritative NT apostolic didactics.

 

[DavidPT]

Though I'm not speaking for him and he would need to confirm this, I understood @Spiritual Jew to be saying that the rest of the beasts had had their dominion removed by the time the fourth beast popped up, but their lives had continued from the time their dominion was taken away until the time the 4th and final beast is judged.

Historically, one by one the rest of the beasts mentioned in Daniel 7 had (already) had their dominion taken away by the next successive empire/beast: Babylon's dominion taken away by Persia, Persia's dominion taken away by Greece, Greece's dominion taken away by Rome.

All these had had their dominion taken away by the time the Roman Empire rose, but their lives had been continuing and would continue for a season and a time until the final beast rises and is thrown into the LOF.

I can see how that makes sense.

Your point of view involves the dominion of the rest of the beasts being taken away only when Christ returns and the final beast is thrown into the LOF (which would naturally involve the question of whether or not the GWT comes only a thousand years after the beast is thrown into the LOF).

Here's a brief commentary that appears to maybe agree with me.



--------------------------------

Daniel 7:12

the rest of the beasts: i.e. the three mentioned in verses: Daniel 7:4-7 as co-existing,

they had, &c. = their dominion was caused to pass away.

their lives were prolonged. a lengthening of their life was given to them: i.e. the remaining three after the fourth beast has been destroyed.

for. season and time: i.e. for an appointed season.

Daniel 7:12 - Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes

--------------------------------------------------------
And then there is also this portion of the commentary at this link that appears to maybe agree with me as well.
-----------------------

Daniel 7:9-12. This vision brings us to the close of the times of the Gentiles. When the fourth beast with the ten horns and the little horn, the last thing spoken of this world empire, is in full swing, then the end comes. It is a great judgment scene which is here before us. How different the end of this age as revealed in the Word and as it is believed in Christendom. The great mass knows nothing whatever about this age coming to an end. It will go on indefinitely, so they believe, and its future is world progress, better times and the triumph of the Christian civilization. But others concede that a judgment must come and they think of the judgment here as the universal judgment, the great white throne judgment. This judgment is not the last judgment at all. It is a judgment which precedes the final judgment by 1,000 years. This judgment here must be read in connection with passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 19:19-21. In reading the last passage no one can doubt that we have the same judgment here revealed to Daniel. But who is the one who occupies the central place in this vision of judgment? There can be but one answer. It is our ever blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. John 5:22 gives the conclusive answer: “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.” The Ancient of Days is the Lord Jesus Christ. It is still more demonstrated if we turn to John's great Patmos vision.

Daniel 7:1 - Annotated Bible by A.C. Gabelein

-----------------------------

I haven't looked through every Commentary presented at that link, and no doubt, some of those Commentaries agree with a parenthetical interpretation of Daniel 7:12, yet some of them don't. So it's not like Daniel 7:12 is not debatable. It's not like Daniel 7:12 can only be understood parenthetically and that every Commentator, Scholar, and interpreter on the planet past and present understands it this way.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Here's a brief commentary that appears to maybe agree with me.



--------------------------------

Daniel 7:12

the rest of the beasts: i.e. the three mentioned in verses: Daniel 7:4-7 as co-existing,

they had, &c. = their dominion was caused to pass away.

their lives were prolonged. a lengthening of their life was given to them: i.e. the remaining three after the fourth beast has been destroyed.

for. season and time: i.e. for an appointed season.

Daniel 7:12 - Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes

--------------------------------------------------------
And then there is also this portion of the commentary at this link that appears to maybe agree with me as well.
-----------------------

Daniel 7:9-12. This vision brings us to the close of the times of the Gentiles. When the fourth beast with the ten horns and the little horn, the last thing spoken of this world empire, is in full swing, then the end comes. It is a great judgment scene which is here before us. How different the end of this age as revealed in the Word and as it is believed in Christendom. The great mass knows nothing whatever about this age coming to an end. It will go on indefinitely, so they believe, and its future is world progress, better times and the triumph of the Christian civilization. But others concede that a judgment must come and they think of the judgment here as the universal judgment, the great white throne judgment. This judgment is not the last judgment at all. It is a judgment which precedes the final judgment by 1,000 years. This judgment here must be read in connection with passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 19:19-21. In reading the last passage no one can doubt that we have the same judgment here revealed to Daniel. But who is the one who occupies the central place in this vision of judgment? There can be but one answer. It is our ever blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. John 5:22 gives the conclusive answer: “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.” The Ancient of Days is the Lord Jesus Christ. It is still more demonstrated if we turn to John's great Patmos vision.

Daniel 7:1 - Annotated Bible by A.C. Gabelein

-----------------------------

I haven't looked through every Commentary presented at that link, and no doubt, some of those Commentaries agree with a parenthetical interpretation of Daniel 7:12, yet some of them don't. So it's not like Daniel 7:12 is not debatable. It's not like Daniel 7:12 can only be understood parenthetically and that every Commentator, Scholar, and interpreter on the planet past and present understands it this way.

I don't recall anyone ever claiming that everyone in the world except you sees Daniel 7:12 as being parenthetical, so this was completely unnecessary to point out that you're not the only one to interpret it as you do. But, I do feel safe in saying that most (if not a vast majority) Bible scholars see it as being a parenthetical verse because most would agree that it's talking about successive kingdoms and not 4 kingdoms that are in power at the same time.

Tell me, David. Why would there be 2 completely separate judgment events at which unbelievers will be cast into everlasting fire? I assume you see Daniel 7:9-11 as being the same judgment as Matthew 25:31-46, but somehow not the same judgment as Revelation 20:11-15 despite the fact that both talk about Jesus sitting on a throne and the books being opened. Can you explain that in any kind of convincing way?

Do you think Jesus Himself ever referred to the great white throne judgment? Not in those exact words, but do you think He referred to that event at all in any way? I obviously believe He did in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and others, but I wonder if you think He ever referred to it.

If not, do you think the great white throne judgment is referred to in other scripture besides Revelation 20:11-15 at all? If so, where? If not, why not? Other scripture refers to the second coming of Christ, the destruction of His enemies at His return, the new heavens and new earth and other things written about in the book of Revelation, so why not the great white throne judgment as well?

 

[keras]

God doesn't reveal truth to just one person as you think.

God revealed His plans to the individual Prophets.
What I do is to promote what the Prophets wrote; Gods Words.

Careful reading of all the prophesies does not cause 'blindness'.

1. He doesn't believe that "We Gentile Christians" have received the New Covenant yet. God is still "going to cut the New Covenant with us".

As I have proved, with many prophesies that say God will make a new Covenant with His people, as a cohesive nation, as described in Isaiah 62

2. God is only going to cut the New Covenant with us once all unbelieving Jews living in Israel now, together with all unbelievers in the surrounding nations, have been annihilated and God has brought "the Christians into the promised land in the second Exodus".

Many prophesies describe the great Second Exodus of the faithful peoples. Isaiah 35:1-10, Psalms 107, Romans 9:24-26
The only Jews who will be there are ones that have accepted Jesus now.

3. There are more than a dozen prophecies in the Old Testament which have been highlighted and dragged out of their historical context and shoved into a folder labelled with whatever name this new kingdom is going to have.

A useless opinion and a typical reaction from one whose beliefs are shown to be wrong.

4. It's in the Middle East (just in case you were wondering).

All of the holy Land; from the Nile to the Euphrates.

don't see "the truth of points 1-4 because we are spiritually blinded".

Sadly, you are. Isaiah 8:16
Just as the Bible tells us those who choose to believe in false teachings will be. Matthew 11:25, Isaiah 29:9-12, 1 Corinthians 1:19-20

GROAN.

Save that for the Day when people will be shocked and terrified, as the Lord sends His fiery wrath to test us all. 1 Peter 4:12

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Let me ask you this. Do you think when the beast and fp and satan gets cast into the LOF, that that happens during what is recorded in Revelation 20:11-15?

Yes, I believe that Satan, his angels, the beast and false prophet will be judged at the great white throne judgment along with those whose names are not written in the book of life. It's not like there will be some other throne that Satan and his angels have to stand before besides the great white throne. What sense would that make?

I know what you're getting at here before even reading the rest of your post. I believe that Revelation 20 simply refers to Satan's demise before referring to the great white throne judgment simply because Revelation 20:11-15 is focused primarily on the judgment of human beings and not fallen angels. But, that doesn't mean that Satan and his angels won't have to stand before the great white throne to be judged as well. Why wouldn't they?

Revelation 19:19-20 talks about the beast being cast into the lake of fire, but makes no mention of the beast standing before a throne. But, Daniel 7:9-11 does. So, should we conclude that those two passages are not speaking of the same event just because one mentions the beast and a throne and one doesn't? No, right? Yet, this is the kind of argument you're trying to make in regards to Daniel 7:9-11 and Revelation 20:11-15. Since that kind of argument can't be used to conclude that Daniel 7:9-11 and Revelation 19:19-20 are different events, then it can't be used to conclude that Daniel 7:9-11 and Revelation 20:11-15 are different events, either.

Assuming you don't, and even if you have these other 3 getting cast into the LOF the same day when those recorded in verses 12-15 are cast in, just earlier is all, do you think there are books open during when these other 3 are being cast into the LOF?

Yes. Daniel 7:9-11 is quite clear that the books are already opened before the beast/little horn gets cast into the fire.

Revelation 20:11-15 records that there are books opened and so does Daniel 7:9-11. In Daniel 7:9-11 the judgment is not involving what Revelation 20:11-15 is involving, it is involving what Revelation 19 is involving. Nothing in Revelation 19 can be involving the GWTJ at this point because not everyone are even dead yet when Christ returns.

You are making a lot of assumptions here. Just because two passages don't contain all the same details doesn't mean the two passages can't be speaking of the same event. Why do I have to tell people this all the time? It's a wonder that you ever relate any two passages together as speaking of the same event.

As far as not everyone being dead yet when Christ returns, what does that mean? He will kill all unbelievers when He returns (Matt 24:37-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3 ,2 Thess 1:7-9, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18, etc.), so your claim that Revelation 19 can't involve the GWTJ is not true.

And since Revelation 20:4 involves thrones and judgment, but says zero about any books being opened, why can't Daniel 7:9-11 be allowing us to see these events in more detail?

Please tell me your understanding of what the thrones and judgment of Revelation 20:4 entails and how it has anything to do with Daniel 7:9-11.

Daniel 7:9-11 only references ONE throne, which is the one that Jesus sits on. Where does Revelation 20:4 say anything about Jesus sitting on a throne to judge anyone?

In Revelation 20:11-15 when that judgment is taking place, the beast and fp are already in the LOF, thus not present during the GWTJ.

That is your assumption. But, how exactly are they able to avoid having to stand before the great white throne? How exactly is the throne of Daniel 7:9-11 not the great white throne? Does Jesus have more than one throne of judgment that He sits on?

Yet, in Daniel 7:9-11 the beast is present during that judgment. If that judgment is the GWTJ, and that Revelation 20 records that he is already in the LOF before that judgment begins, how can he be in that judgment in one account and not be in that same judgment in another account allegedly involving this same judgment?

You're overthinking all this. Each passage you're talking about is giving different details about the same judgment event. While there will only be one judgment event (as scripture teaches repeatedly), it's apparent that Satan and his angels and whatever the beast and false prophet are (you see them as being 2 individual people) are not judged at exactly the same time as those whose names are not written in the book of life. It appears they will be judged first and then human beings will be judged after that.

But, to see two completely separate judgment events is simply not supported by scripture. God has appointed one judgment event to judge everyone (Acts 17:31). Why do you then conclude that there are two separate judgments when scripture says there will be one?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Though I'm not speaking for him and he would need to confirm this, I understood @Spiritual Jew to be saying that the rest of the beasts had had their dominion removed by the time the fourth beast popped up, but their lives had continued from the time their dominion was taken away until the time the 4th and final beast is judged.

Yes, you are correct.

Historically, one by one the rest of the beasts mentioned in Daniel 7 had (already) had their dominion taken away by the next successive empire/beast: Babylon's dominion taken away by Persia, Persia's dominion taken away by Greece, Greece's dominion taken away by Rome.

All these had had their dominion taken away by the time the Roman Empire rose, but their lives had been continuing and would continue for a season and a time until the final beast rises and is thrown into the LOF.

I can see how that makes sense.

Your point of view involves the dominion of the rest of the beasts being taken away only when Christ returns and the final beast is thrown into the LOF (which would naturally involve the question of whether or not the GWT comes only a thousand years after the beast is thrown into the LOF).

That view has all four beasts somehow being in power at the same time. I don't think that makes any sense. The view of them being four successive beast kingdoms makes a lot more sense to me and I think that is how most understand it even if they don't all agree on which kingdoms/world empires the beasts represent.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

1. He doesn't believe that "We Gentile Christians" have received the New Covenant yet. God is still "going to cut the New Covenant with us".

That's interesting that God would leave the fulfillment of HIS covenant with us up to us. That's a lot of pressure on us. It seems that He would be putting far more trust in us than we deserve. I don't personally feel up to the pressure of fulfilling God's covenant. Thankfully, it's not up to me or you or any of us at all in reality. The idea that any of us would be responsible for fulfilling what only Christ could do (and did) is ludicrous.

2. God is only going to cut the New Covenant with us once all unbelieving Jews living in Israel now, together with all unbelievers in the surrounding nations, have been annihilated and God has brought "the Christians into the promised land in the second Exodus".

Oh yes, that makes perfect sense. Excuse me. I mean, it makes no sense at all.

3. There are more than a dozen prophecies in the Old Testament which have been highlighted and dragged out of their historical context and shoved into a folder labelled with whatever name this new kingdom is going to have.

Is context important? Not to him, I guess.

4. It's in the Middle East (just in case you were wondering).

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

5. You and I and everyone else who knows he's a Christian because of the New Covenant and the blood of Christ which established the New Covenant, don't see "the truth of points 1-4 because we are spiritually blinded".

GROAN.

I am groaning as well. Ugh.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

God revealed His plans to the individual Prophets.
What I do is to promote what the Prophets wrote; Gods Words.

You promote false doctrine. You should not equate your interpretations of God's words with God's words themselves.

Careful reading of all the prophesies does not cause 'blindness'.

So, only you have read the prophecies carefully and no one else? That's interesting. You are so arrogant that it boggles my mind.

As I have proved, with many prophesies that say God will make a new Covenant with His people, as a cohesive nation, as described in Isaiah 62

Scripture teaches that Christ established the new covenant with His blood. There is no other way for the new covenant to be established. You undermine His work on the cross with your false doctrine.

All of the holy Land; from the Nile to the Euphrates.

You should read Hebrews 11 some time if it's in your Bible. You're looking forward to inheriting an earthly country when you should be looking forward to inheriting a heavenly country and a heavenly city whose builder and maker is God like Abraham and the other saints who came before us.

You should also try reading 2 Peter 3:13 sometime where Peter said we are looking forward to the new heavens and new earth in fulfillment of the promise of Christ's second coming and not just some piece of land "from the Nile to the Euphrates". Jesus has much more to give us when He returns than you think. At least you will be pleasantly surprised even though you will probably also be embarrassed about the beliefs you had.

Why don't you try using the New Testament to aid your understanding of the Old Testament prophecies instead of interpreting the Old Testament prophecies in such a way that contradicts New Testament scripture?

Sadly, you are. Isaiah 8:16
Just as the Bible tells us those who choose to believe in false teachings will be. Matthew 11:25, Isaiah 29:9-12, 1 Corinthians 1:19-20

Save that for the Day when people will be shocked and terrified, as the Lord sends His fiery wrath to test us all. 1 Peter 4:12

You think the Lord is going to send His wrath on believers? Speaking of false teachings...

 

[keras]

You promote false doctrine. You should not equate your interpretations of God's words with God's words themselves.

Another rude and disgusting accusation.
Perhaps you could attempt to 'interpret' Isaiah 35:1-10:
Does that prophecy not mean that the holy Land will be regenerated? V.1-2 & 6-7.
That we don't need to stand firm when God sends His vengeance and wrath? V.3-4, 1 Peter 4:12
That BEFORE the Day of fiery wrath, people will finally understand? V.5

That the Lord's Redeemed people will never enter the holy Land with shouts of triumph and live there in peace and prosperity? V.8-10

Scripture teaches that Christ established the new covenant with His blood.

Jesus did His part of the New Covenant, we have yet to prove our faith during the forthcoming trial, for our part.

You're looking forward to inheriting an earthly country when you should be looking forward to inheriting a heavenly country and a heavenly city whose builder and maker is God like Abraham and the other saints who came before us.

That comes later; after the Millennium. As described in Revelation 21 to 22 Much must happen before that, that confused people are incapable of seeing.

you will probably also be embarrassed about the beliefs you had.

Those who promote false doctrines and beliefs, will be more than embarrassed, they will be severely Judged. James 3:1

Why don't you try using the New Testament to aid your understanding of the Old Testament prophecies instead of interpreting the Old Testament prophecies in such a way that contradicts New Testament scripture?

I have no contradictions in the end times scenario that I promote.
Why I post here, is to refute the glaring errors and confusions of others.

You think the Lord is going to send His wrath on believers? Speaking of false teachings...

Comments like this show how little you know of what the Prophets actually said.
ALL must be tried and tested; thru everything until Jesus Returns.
We need to stand firm in our faith and call upon the Lord for His protection. Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32, +

 

[Zao is life]

Here's a brief commentary that appears to maybe agree with me.



--------------------------------

Daniel 7:12

the rest of the beasts: i.e. the three mentioned in verses: Daniel 7:4-7 as co-existing,

they had, &c. = their dominion was caused to pass away.

their lives were prolonged. a lengthening of their life was given to them: i.e. the remaining three after the fourth beast has been destroyed.

for. season and time: i.e. for an appointed season.

Daniel 7:12 - Bullinger's Companion Bible Notes

--------------------------------------------------------
And then there is also this portion of the commentary at this link that appears to maybe agree with me as well.
-----------------------

Daniel 7:9-12. This vision brings us to the close of the times of the Gentiles. When the fourth beast with the ten horns and the little horn, the last thing spoken of this world empire, is in full swing, then the end comes. It is a great judgment scene which is here before us. How different the end of this age as revealed in the Word and as it is believed in Christendom. The great mass knows nothing whatever about this age coming to an end. It will go on indefinitely, so they believe, and its future is world progress, better times and the triumph of the Christian civilization. But others concede that a judgment must come and they think of the judgment here as the universal judgment, the great white throne judgment. This judgment is not the last judgment at all. It is a judgment which precedes the final judgment by 1,000 years. This judgment here must be read in connection with passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 19:19-21. In reading the last passage no one can doubt that we have the same judgment here revealed to Daniel. But who is the one who occupies the central place in this vision of judgment? There can be but one answer. It is our ever blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. John 5:22 gives the conclusive answer: “For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son.” The Ancient of Days is the Lord Jesus Christ. It is still more demonstrated if we turn to John's great Patmos vision.

Daniel 7:1 - Annotated Bible by A.C. Gabelein

-----------------------------

I haven't looked through every Commentary presented at that link, and no doubt, some of those Commentaries agree with a parenthetical interpretation of Daniel 7:12, yet some of them don't. So it's not like Daniel 7:12 is not debatable. It's not like Daniel 7:12 can only be understood parenthetically and that every Commentator, Scholar, and interpreter on the planet past and present understands it this way.

Thank you. The above commentary proves to me that how it's interpreted will depend on how someone sees the thousand years, and when the GWT will take place. Amillennialists will interpret it the way SJ does. Premillennilalists will interpret it the way you do (I used to interpret it that way too, but now I don't interpret it at all).

But what you said about the seven heads is VERY interesting. Because it means either that:

(a) Even though the rest of the beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece) had had their dominion taken away by another beast, yet their lives would still be continuing, even if only as provinces of the empire of the beast of Revelation.

If that's the case then they get destroyed in the LOF with the beast; or

(b) They simply have their dominion taken away by Christ at that point, but their lives are spared for a season and a time, while only the beast of the Revelation is thrown into the LOF.

But this is why I won't interpret the verse anymore. For me it's just too much guess-work. Premillennialists and Amillennialists can be sure that the way they are interpreting it is correct (even though they are not interpreting it the same way). But for this here agnosmillennialist it's just too much guess-work so I won't interpret it.

 

[Timtofly]

Scripture never refers to the heavens and earth after the flood as the new heavens and new earth. You're making things up, as usual.

Scripture said it was destroyed. How was that not new? If you had a car destroyed in an accident, are you still driving a totaled car, or a new one? Even if it could be repaired it was new again, not still destroyed.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm saying that there is only one judgment day during which eternal rewards and punishments will be given out. Is that what is described in Revelation 20:4? No. Is that described in Revelation 20:11 to 21:5? Yes. Why do I have to spell everything out to you?

The reward was eternal life and ruling with Christ on earth in Revelation 20:4

The reward was the LoF at the GWT.

You would prefer to be standing at the GWT, and that reward?

 

[Timtofly]

But, that doesn't mean that Satan and his angels won't have to stand before the great white throne to be judged as well. Why wouldn't they?

Not sure why you disagree with Keras? You both have all creation standing at the GWT in judgment. He does not separate out different judgments just like you do.

Of course God's Word declares different judgments at different times. You all just symbolize that away into nonsense. At least you keep calling it nonsense. Since that is about the only response to God's Word you ever give, when God's Word is provided.

 

[DavidPT]

Thank you. The above commentary proves to me that how it's interpreted will depend on how someone sees the thousand years, and when the GWT will take place. Amillennialists will interpret it the way SJ does. Premillennilalists will interpret it the way you do (I used to interpret it that way too, but now I don't interpret it at all).

But what you said about the seven heads is VERY interesting. Because it means either that:

(a) Even though the rest of the beasts (Babylon, Persia, Greece) had had their dominion taken away by another beast, yet their lives would still be continuing, even if only as provinces of the empire of the beast of Revelation.

If that's the case then they get destroyed in the LOF with the beast; or

(b) They simply have their dominion taken away by Christ at that point, but their lives are spared for a season and a time, while only the beast of the Revelation is thrown into the LOF.

But this is why I won't interpret the verse anymore. For me it's just too much guess-work. Premillennialists and Amillennialists can be sure that the way they are interpreting it is correct (even though they are not interpreting it the same way). But for this here agnosmillennialist it's just too much guess-work so I won't interpret it.

At least it is clear to me now why you no longer interpret it. Your reasons for that are valid, IMO. I still choose to interpret it myself, and even though you are correct that Premils and Amils interpret the way they do based on their view of the thousand years, it could also mean, in the case of Premil, that this proves the thousand years are post the 2nd coming if their lives are being prolonged when the little horn is being given to the burning flame at the 2nd coming. All I'm doing is sticking to what the text is saying. I see it saying that when the little horn is given to the burning flame, the rest of the beasts are not also being given to the burning flame, instead, their lives are being prolonged and that their dominion is taken away. The text never one time says the rest of the beasts are given to the burning flame? Why not if they were also?

 

[Zao is life]

At least it is clear to me now why you no longer interpret it. Your reasons for that are valid, IMO. I still choose to interpret it myself, and even though you are correct that Premils and Amils interpret the way they do based on their view of the thousand years, it could also mean, in the case of Premil, that this proves the thousand years are post the 2nd coming if their lives are being prolonged when the little horn is being given to the burning flame at the 2nd coming. All I'm doing is sticking to what the text is saying. I see it saying that when the little horn is given to the burning flame, the rest of the beasts are not also being given to the burning flame, instead, their lives are being prolonged and that their dominion is taken away. The text never one time says the rest of the beasts are given to the burning flame? Why not if they were also?

Yes and that would be true if that verse is including the rest of the beasts with the little horn's kingdom but separating them from the little horn's kingdom again when he is judged.

But the verse may be an interjection, like an "Oh yes. By the way, those first 3 beasts, this is what happened to them", which is so common in scripture. Here's an example of an interjection:

Revelation 16
12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial on the great river Euphrates. And its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the rising of the sun might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Check verses 14 and 16. You don't see Jesus Himself talking in the Revelation again in-between His messages to seven churches and Revelation 22:12-16. But here he interjects, which is definitely meant to tell us something, i.e He is returning THEN. But it also suggests the saints will be here and suffering under the hand of the beast while the plagues are being poured out, the way the saints in Egypt were suffering under the hand of Pharaoh while the plagues were being poured out on Egypt:

So Daniel 7:12 could be an interjection to go back to talking about the other beasts BUT it definitely also may not be, and the way you are interpreting it may be correct.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Another rude and disgusting accusation.

You know all about that.

Those who promote false doctrines and beliefs, will be more than embarrassed, they will be severely Judged. James 3:1

That's going to be a problem for you.

Comments like this show how little you know of what the Prophets actually said.
ALL must be tried and tested; thru everything until Jesus Returns.
We need to stand firm in our faith and call upon the Lord for His protection. Acts 2:21, Romans 10:13, Joel 2:32, +

That has been true for almost 2,000 years already. Why are you acting like those things haven't applied to anyone until now? Anyone who has called upon the Lord and put their faith in Christ in the past 2,000 years has been saved. You're acting as if the lives of all the faithful from the past 2,000 years are meaningless and that scripture has nothing to say about them.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Not sure why you disagree with Keras? You both have all creation standing at the GWT in judgment. He does not separate out different judgments just like you do.

Yes, he does. He thinks that there will be a judgment at the second coming of Christ just like you do. The one portrayed in Matthew 25:31-46. But, he sees Matthew 25:31-45 as referring to a judgment that occurs when Christ returns and Matthew 25:46 as referring to the GWT judgment. Which is ridiculous, but that's how he interprets it.

Of course God's Word declares different judgments at different times.

Where? Acts 17:31 very clearly indicates that God has apointed a singular day to judge everyone. Why do you just ignore verses like that? And Jesus told parables such as the parable of the fishing net in Matthew 13:47-50 where He talked all all the righteous and all the wicked being gathered at the same time for judgment at the end of the age. When is the end of the age? When Jesus returns.

You all just symbolize that away into nonsense. At least you keep calling it nonsense. Since that is about the only response to God's Word you ever give, when God's Word is provided.

Your words are almost always nonsense and everyone here knows it. God's Word is never nonsense.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Scripture said it was destroyed. How was that not new? If you had a car destroyed in an accident, are you still driving a totaled car, or a new one? Even if it could be repaired it was new again, not still destroyed.

Show me the scripture which calls the heavens and earth after the flood "the new heavens and new earth". If you can't do that, then stop trying to convince me of something that scripture doesn't teach.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The reward was eternal life and ruling with Christ on earth in Revelation 20:4

The reward was the LoF at the GWT.

You would prefer to be standing at the GWT, and that reward?

Not the one described in Revelation 20:15, but the one described in Revelation 21:1-5. There were no chapter breaks in the original manuscripts, so people don't realize that the fate of the lost at that point is described first followed by the fate of those who are saved.

Scripture says we will all stand before Christ (Romans 14:10-12). And passages like Matthew 25:31-46 indicate that both the saved and the lost will stand before Him at the same time which will be when Christ returns. Revelation 20:15 describes what will happen to the lost at that time, but Revelation 21:1-5 describes what will happen to believers which is that we will inherit the new heavens and new earth. That is why Peter said in 2 Peter 3:13 that we look forward to the new heavens and new earth in according with the promise of Christ's second coming. Premils, in contrast, look forward to an earthly millennial kingdom in accordance with Christ's second coming, thereby contradicting what Peter said we should be looking forward to.

 

[Timtofly]

14 For they are spirits of demons, working miracles, which go forth to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that day, the great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Check verses 14 and 16. You don't see Jesus Himself talking in the Revelation again in-between His messages to seven churches and Revelation 22:12-16. But here he interjects, which is definitely meant to tell us something, i.e He is returning THEN.

That is an interjection of thought, not action. When Christ comes it will not be planned. Revelation 16 is a planned judgment ending in Armageddon. That is hardly a thief in the night moment.