Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

[Spiritual Jew]

When Jesus Returns, He will reward His faithful peoples and separate the nations. Matthew 25:31-33
That's a Judgment and there have been many others before.

It's a separation of individual people, not nations. Entire nations will not inherit eternal life or be cast into everlasting fire. Individuals will.

You say there have been many other judgments where people either received eternal life or have been cast into everlasting fire? Really? No, there hasn't. And that is the kind of judgment I'm talking about. Scripture only teaches that there will be one judgment event when the saved will be rewarded and the lost will be condemned. That is taught in passages like John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46. It is the one day that God appointed to judge everyone (Acts 17:31).

But the final Judgment of everyone who has ever lived, will be the GWT Judgment, after the Millennium. Rev 20:1-15

That is the only judgement of everyone who has ever lived. John 5:28-29, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46 describe that same judgment and indicate that it will occur when Christ returns at the end of the age.

 

[Timtofly]

What about Revelation 20:11-15? Did you somehow forget about that? My point is that scripture does not teach two completely separate judgment events, so what I said definitely does not prove your point which is that you believe there are two completely separate judgment events separated by 1000+ years.

All of Revelation 20 is after the Second Coming according to premil. Why would I have an issue with:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

This happens after the Second Coming and the angels. Notice the lack of angels gathering souls? Instead it is fire that comes down from heaven. How is the harvest of the angels in Matthew 13, symbolic of fire from heaven. You do not even accept the angels are the stars, that would definitely represent fire coming from heaven.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

All of Revelation 20 is after the Second Coming according to premil.

Obviously. Everyone already knows this. Do I come across as someone who doesn't know what Premil believes? I used to be a Premil myself.

Why would I have an issue with:

"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

This happens after the Second Coming and the angels. Notice the lack of angels gathering souls? Instead it is fire that comes down from heaven. How is the harvest of the angels in Matthew 13, symbolic of fire from heaven. You do not even accept the angels are the stars, that would definitely represent fire coming from heaven.

Do two passages need to have all of the same details in order to be about the same event? Of course not! Why do you (and others on this forum) act as if that is the case? That's nonsense.

Also, my point regarding Revelation 20:11-15 is that you see it as a completely separate judgment event than the one you believe occurs 1000+ years earlier. But scripture does not teach that there will be more than one future judgment during which people either inherit eternal life or are cast into the fire. That's what you're not getting.

 

[keras]

You've said this before several times and I don't buy it now any more than I have before. Isaiah did not mention the new heavens and new earth in one verse and then completely change the topic in the next verse. That makes no sense.

Quite a lot 'makes no sense' to you.
That is because your pre-conceived notions conflict with the truths as presented.
Isaiah 65, the whole chapter is about end time events; soon to happen, the Millennium reign and then the NH, NE and Eternity.
Isaiah 65:18-25 is obviously about the Millennium period, proved by how there will still be death then.
We know from Revelation 21, that the NH, NE comes after the Millennium, again proved by how then; Death will be no more.

Isaiah 65:17 is a parenetical note, it says;... then the past will be no more remembered.
This will not be the case during the Millennium, as people alive now and the resurrected martyrs, whose faith enables them to be the priests and co-rulers of King Jesus, Rev 5:9-10, WILL remember their past.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Quite a lot 'makes no sense' to you.

Yes, quite a lot of your beliefs make no sense to me. And I'm not alone in that.

That is because your pre-conceived notions conflict with the truths as presented.
Isaiah 65, the whole chapter is about end time events; soon to happen, the Millennium reign and then the NH, NE and Eternity.
Isaiah 65:18-25 is obviously about the Millennium period, proved by how there will still be death then.
We know from Revelation 21, that the NH, NE comes after the Millennium, again proved by how then; Death will be no more.

Isaiah 65:17 is a parenetical note, it says;... then the past will be no more remembered.
This will not be the case during the Millennium, as people alive now and the resurrected martyrs, whose faith enables them to be the priests and co-rulers of King Jesus, Rev 5:9-10, WILL remember their past.

In your view Isaiah brought up the new heavens and new earth only to say almost nothing about it. Really? Imagine John writing what he did in Revelation 21:1 and then proceeded to not say anything else about the new heavens and new earth in the verses that followed it. You would think that makes sense?

 

[Timtofly]

You believe in two future new heavens and two future new earths then. Which is ridiculous.

This is the second new heaven and earth. Noah's Flood was the first. The time the earth was destroyed by water.

2 Peter 3 pointed that out. The next time is by fire, but still not the NHNE.

Noah's Flood was not ridiculous.

 

[Timtofly]

But scripture does not teach that there will be more than one future judgment during which people either inherit eternal life or are cast into the fire. That's what you're not getting.

Of course it does. Revelation 20 is Scripture.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them."

Thrones and judgment, what more can one ask for?

 

[keras]

quite a lot of your beliefs make no sense to me. And I'm not alone in that.

There is a reason for this; Isaiah 42:18-20...God has blinded His servants.
Why would He do that? Because when the test comes, those with weak faith will fall away. 1 Peter 4:12

It is unfortunately true that the more people who study the prophetic scripture and attempt to establish a coherent picture of the end times, then the more different ideas, theories and scenarios are promulgated. WHY IS THIS?

The Bible does tell us why and the prophet Daniel says that ‘only a few wise leaders’, that is: those few who diligently study the Word and avoid all false teachings and doctrines, will know what will happen.

Luke 18:32-34 The Son of Man will be handed over to the Gentiles. He will be mocked, maltreated and spat upon, then flogged and killed. Then on the third day, He will rise again. But the disciples could not understand or grasp what He was talking about, for its meaning was concealed from them.

Isaiah 29:9-14 Because this people worship Me with empty words and just pay Me lip service while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human precept, learnt by rote: therefore I shall shock them, adding shock to shock. The wisdom of their learned people will vanish and the discernment of the intelligent will be lost. Matthew 11:25

If you confuse yourselves, you will stay confused. If you blind yourself, you will stay blinded. Be drunk, but not with strong drink, for the Lord has poured upon you a spirit of deep stupor, He has closed the eyes of the prophets and muffled the seers. The prophetic vision of it all has become for you like the words of a sealed book, a book impossible to understand.

Isaiah 56:10-11 For all Israel’s watchmen are blind, perceiving nothing, they are all dumb dogs that cannot bark just dreaming as they sleep in ignorance. Israel’s shepherds understand nothing, all going their own way in their greed and false teachings. Ref: REB paraphrased


‘its meaning concealed from them’, This shows how God can and does hide true understanding from those whom He wishes to. Deut. 29:4, Matthew 11:25

‘this people’, this refers to followers of Judaism and Christianity. Ezekiel 12:2

‘wisdom and discernment will be lost’, because of false doctrines, non Biblical teachings and outright idol worship, the Lord has drawn the veil of inability to understand His plans and purposes. Deuteronomy 32:28-29, Isaiah 6:9-10, Jeremiah 6:10

‘if you confuse yourself, you will stay confused’, people who have believed the comfortable idea of a rapture, or say ‘all is peaceful, all secure’, will be shocked by the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, the soon to happen judgement/ punishment of His enemies.

‘Israel’s watchmen understand nothing, in their greed and false teachings’, Those who preach incorrect doctrines and who write end times fiction, will face a more severe judgement on that great Day. James 3:1, Matthew 23:10, 2 Peter 2:1-3



Ecclesiasticus 15:1-10 He who fears the Lord will act thus: He will give his mind to study and will meditate on understanding and if he masters the Law, wisdom will be his. Wisdom will come out and greet him like a mother, like a bride to her husband and his food will be the bread of understanding, his drink: the water of wisdom. He will rely on her and not be put to shame. He will find prosperity and in the assembly, his words will be inspired. Fools will never possess wisdom, nor will sinners catch a glimpse of her. She holds aloof from arrogance and liars never see her.

 

[keras]

In your view Isaiah brought up the new heavens and new earth only to say almost nothing about it.

Yes; Isaiah was using the 'set in concrete' truth of the coming New Heaven and the New Earth, to reinforce his prophecy about the Millennium.
He does it again in Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and earth which I will make will endure before Me, so shall your seed and name remain.
Obviously, the rest of Isaiah 66, is not about the Eternal state.

 

[DavidPT]

I do, too.

Why not? He hadn't mentioned what ended up happening to them, so he mentioned it in verse 12. What is the problem with that? Why do you not want to allow scripture to contain any parenthetical verses?

Who are you to tell Daniel in what order he should have described the events he wrote about? Is all of scripture written in chronological order? You know it's not. So, why do you get so bent out of shape over the idea of Daniel 7 not all being in chronological order?

You are making some assumptions that are not true. You should already know by now how I view Daniel 7:13-14, that I view it as involving the ascension, thus making it parenthetical or whatever one might want to call it, in relation to Daniel 7:9-12. But this can be easily explained why those verses don't have to be taking place when those other verses are taking place. Verses 13-14 show who and how the one sitting on the throne in these previous verses initially aquired this position.

IMO, the Ancient of days is being used interchangeably in Daniel 7. Sometimes it is meaning the Father, sometimes it is meaning the Son. In verses 13-14 it is meaning the Father, in verse 9 and 22 it is meaning the Son. Therefore, in verse 22 when it states---Until the Ancient of days came--it is meaning a literal bodily coming, it is meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age---Revelation 19, and that it also involves Revelation 20:4, thus placing the beginning of the thousand years after the 2nd coming, not prior to it instead.

BTW, if I recall correctly, it seems like there was a time in the past where I did view Daniel 7:12 in a parenthetical manner. But at the time I apparently had not thought everything through yet. Revelation 13 has a beast rising up out of the sea with 7 heads and that one of it's heads, the head with 10 horns on it, having a deadly wound that is healed.

The beast, meaning the entire beast, was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And if we do some comparing with Daniel 7, between the leapord(Daniel 7:6--involves 4 heads), the bear(Daniel 7:5--involves 1 head), and the lion(Daniel 7:4--involves 1 head), this totals 6 heads. Add the head with the deadly wound that is healed, this now totals 7 heads.

In Daniel 7:9-11 and Revelation 19, it is the head with the deadly wound that is cast into the LOF, thus leaving the rest of the beasts, the remaining 6 heads still intact, except they have their dominion being taken away, and their lives prolonged for a season and a time. When? When the little horn is given to the burning flame since that is what the text states.

 

[Zao is life]

IMO, the Ancient of days is being used interchangeably in Daniel 7. Sometimes it is meaning the Father, sometimes it is meaning the Son. In verses 13-14 it is meaning the Father, in verse 9 and 22 it is meaning the Son. Therefore, in verse 22 when it states---Until the Ancient of days came--it is meaning a literal bodily coming, it is meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age---Revelation 19, and that it also involves Revelation 20:4, thus placing the beginning of the thousand years after the 2nd coming, not prior to it instead.

Hope you don't mind me joining into the conversation here.

I see the first part of the chapter (verses 3-14) as the record of the vision Daniel saw in his dream. The second and final part of the chapter (verses 17-27) are the explanation of the dream/vision, i.e the meaning.

Both end with Christ destroying the final beast in the LOF, and both end with Christ reigning:

The dream/vision:
11 Then I was looking because of the voice of the great words which the horn spoke. I watched until the beast was slain, and his body was destroyed and given to the burning flame.

The meaning:
26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his rulership, to cut off and to destroy until the end.

The dream/vision:
Daniel 7
14 And dominion and glory was given Him, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations and languages, should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which shall not pass away, and His kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

The meaning:
27 And the kingdom and rulership, and the greatness of the kingdom under all the heavens, shall be given to the people of the saints of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom. And all kingdoms shall serve and obey Him.

The vision of the throne is the Son of Man sitting in judgment of the beast. The Father is in the Son when He juges anyway, so I don't see any reason why the Father and the Son would not being spoken of interchangeably.

I find what you say here VERY interesting:

Daniel 7, between the leapord (Daniel 7:6--involves 4 heads), the bear(Daniel 7:5--involves 1 head), and the lion (Daniel 7:4--involves 1 head), this totals 6 heads. Add the head with the deadly wound that is healed, this now totals 7 heads.

So thanks for sharing that

Aside from the above, you need to try agnosmillennialism. It makes you indifferent as to what point in history the rest of the beasts are to have/already had their dominion taken away, and whether or not their lives will be made longer/were made longer for a season and time.

agnosmillennialism is as nice as eating bacon & eggs for breakfast every day. I believe both your and @Spiritual Jew 's interpretations of Daniel 7:12 once upon a time and twice together.

 

[DavidPT]

Aside from the above, you need to try agnosmillennialism. It makes you indifferent as to what point in history the rest of the beasts are to have/already had their dominion taken away, and whether or not their lives will be made longer/were made longer for a season and time.

agnosmillennialism is as nice as eating bacon & eggs for breakfast every day. I believe both your and @Spiritual Jew 's interpretations of Daniel 7:12 once upon a time and twice together.

I don't see how being indifferent solves anything? One still has to make determinations about things, regardless. The way I see it then, assuming Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the GWTJ like some assume, it would make zero sense to tell us what happened to the rest of the beasts at a much earlier time if the time involving these verses have to do with the GWTJ. It doesn't fit the context, not even if meaning parenthetical. Let me try and illustrate my point like this.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time(Daniel 7:12).
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Seriously, does that look like that belongs there, even parenthetically? That is exactly what one is proposing about Daniel 7:9-12 if one has any of those verses involving the GWTJ.

But, if instead, we were to insert verse 12 into the following text, does it look like it could maybe belong there? I tend to think it does. At least more than it does if we try and parenthetically insert it somewhere within verses 10-15 in Revelation 20 instead.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time(Daniel 7:12).

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This is the second new heaven and earth. Noah's Flood was the first. The time the earth was destroyed by water.

2 Peter 3 pointed that out. The next time is by fire, but still not the NHNE.

Noah's Flood was not ridiculous.

Scripture never refers to the heavens and earth after the flood as the new heavens and new earth. You're making things up, as usual.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

There is a reason for this; Isaiah 42:18-20...God has blinded His servants.
Why would He do that? Because when the test comes, those with weak faith will fall away. 1 Peter 4:12

Oh, so you're accusing me of having weak faith and think I will fall away? And you accuse me of being rude and making false accusations? You're the blind one here. That's why you believe things that no one else does. God doesn't reveal truth to just one person as you think. You have blinded yourself.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

You are making some assumptions that are not true. You should already know by now how I view Daniel 7:13-14, that I view it as involving the ascension, thus making it parenthetical or whatever one might want to call it, in relation to Daniel 7:9-12. But this can be easily explained why those verses don't have to be taking place when those other verses are taking place. Verses 13-14 show who and how the one sitting on the throne in these previous verses initially aquired this position.

Why you can discern that but can't discern that verse 12 is also parenthetical makes no sense to me. I think only doctrinal bias is causing you to interpret verse 12 the way you do.

You know that the beasts represent kingdoms, right (Daniel 7:23)? That they are successive kingdoms rather than kingdoms that are somehow all in power at the same time can be seen here:

Daniel 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Notice that it says the fourth beast "was diverse from all the beasts that were before it". That means the other 3 beast kingdoms were in power before the rise of the fourth beast kingdom. So, the timing of each of them being prolonged for a time is after they stopped being in power and not after the judgment described in verses 9-11 takes place.

IMO, the Ancient of days is being used interchangeably in Daniel 7. Sometimes it is meaning the Father, sometimes it is meaning the Son. In verses 13-14 it is meaning the Father, in verse 9 and 22 it is meaning the Son. Therefore, in verse 22 when it states---Until the Ancient of days came--it is meaning a literal bodily coming, it is meaning the 2nd coming in the end of this age---Revelation 19, and that it also involves Revelation 20:4, thus placing the beginning of the thousand years after the 2nd coming, not prior to it instead.

BTW, if I recall correctly, it seems like there was a time in the past where I did view Daniel 7:12 in a parenthetical manner. But at the time I apparently had not thought everything through yet. Revelation 13 has a beast rising up out of the sea with 7 heads and that one of it's heads, the head with 10 horns on it, having a deadly wound that is healed.

The beast, meaning the entire beast, was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.

And if we do some comparing with Daniel 7, between the leapord(Daniel 7:6--involves 4 heads), the bear(Daniel 7:5--involves 1 head), and the lion(Daniel 7:4--involves 1 head), this totals 6 heads. Add the head with the deadly wound that is healed, this now totals 7 heads.

In Daniel 7:9-11 and Revelation 19, it is the head with the deadly wound that is cast into the LOF, thus leaving the rest of the beasts, the remaining 6 heads still intact, except they have their dominion being taken away, and their lives prolonged for a season and a time. When? When the little horn is given to the burning flame since that is what the text states.

What you said here makes no sense to me, so I can't even comment on it. For whatever reason you seem to think the four beast kingdoms are somehow all in power at the same time rather than seeing them as successive kingdoms.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Of course it does. Revelation 20 is Scripture.

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them."

Thrones and judgment, what more can one ask for?

Who are they and what are they judging? Are they giving out eternal rewards and punishment? I don't believe so. I believe it's talking about them being given authority and has nothing to do with them judging people in the sense that I've been talking about.

I'm saying that there is only one judgment day during which eternal rewards and punishments will be given out. Is that what is described in Revelation 20:4? No. Is that described in Revelation 20:11 to 21:5? Yes. Why do I have to spell everything out to you?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I don't see how being indifferent solves anything? One still has to make determinations about things, regardless. The way I see it then, assuming Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the GWTJ like some assume, it would make zero sense to tell us what happened to the rest of the beasts at a much earlier time if the time involving these verses have to do with the GWTJ. It doesn't fit the context, not even if meaning parenthetical. Let me try and illustrate my point like this.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time(Daniel 7:12).
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Seriously, does that look like that belongs there, even parenthetically? That is exactly what one is proposing about Daniel 7:9-12 if one has any of those verses involving the GWTJ.

This is not a valid argument. Imagine me making a similar argument regarding Daniel 7:13-14 by putting those verses at the end of Revelation 20:10 and asking if it looks like they belong there. That would be ridiculous, right? Exactly. These kinds of arguments are completely unconvincing.

You are trying to create man-made rules for how Daniel was supposed to write his prophecy, but that isn't up to you. You acknowledge that Daniel 7:13-14 don't describe things that happen after verse 12 and you have no problem with that, but somehow verse 12 not being a description of something that happens after verse 11 is a huge problem for you. Your Premil bias is very evident here.

 

[DavidPT]

So, you think there will be 2 different judgments when the books are opened then? How does that make any sense?

Let me ask you this. Do you think when the beast and fp and satan gets cast into the LOF, that that happens during what is recorded in Revelation 20:11-15? Assuming you don't, and even if you have these other 3 getting cast into the LOF the same day when those recorded in verses 12-15 are cast in, just earlier is all, do you think there are books open during when these other 3 are being cast into the LOF?

Revelation 20:11-15 records that there are books opened and so does Daniel 7:9-11. In Daniel 7:9-11 the judgment is not involving what Revelation 20:11-15 is involving, it is involving what Revelation 19 is involving. Nothing in Revelation 19 can be involving the GWTJ at this point because not everyone are even dead yet when Christ returns.

And since Revelation 20:4 involves thrones and judgment, but says zero about any books being opened, why can't Daniel 7:9-11 be allowing us to see these events in more detail? In Revelation 20:11-15 when that judgment is taking place, the beast and fp are already in the LOF, thus not present during the GWTJ. Yet, in Daniel 7:9-11 the beast is present during that judgment. If that judgment is the GWTJ, and that Revelation 20 records that he is already in the LOF before that judgment begins, how can he be in that judgment in one account and not be in that same judgment in another account allegedly involving this same judgment?

 

[Zao is life]

I don't see how being indifferent solves anything? One still has to make determinations about things, regardless. The way I see it then, assuming Daniel 7:9-11 is involving the GWTJ like some assume, it would make zero sense to tell us what happened to the rest of the beasts at a much earlier time if the time involving these verses have to do with the GWTJ. It doesn't fit the context, not even if meaning parenthetical. Let me try and illustrate my point like this.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time(Daniel 7:12).
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Seriously, does that look like that belongs there, even parenthetically? That is exactly what one is proposing about Daniel 7:9-12 if one has any of those verses involving the GWTJ.

But, if instead, we were to insert verse 12 into the following text, does it look like it could maybe belong there? I tend to think it does. At least more than it does if we try and parenthetically insert it somewhere within verses 10-15 in Revelation 20 instead.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time(Daniel 7:12).

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Though I'm not speaking for him and he would need to confirm this, I understood @Spiritual Jew to be saying that the rest of the beasts had had their dominion removed by the time the fourth beast popped up, but their lives had continued from the time their dominion was taken away until the time the 4th and final beast is judged.

Historically, one by one the rest of the beasts mentioned in Daniel 7 had (already) had their dominion taken away by the next successive empire/beast: Babylon's dominion taken away by Persia, Persia's dominion taken away by Greece, Greece's dominion taken away by Rome.

All these had had their dominion taken away by the time the Roman Empire rose, but their lives had been continuing and would continue for a season and a time until the final beast rises and is thrown into the LOF.

I can see how that makes sense.

Your point of view involves the dominion of the rest of the beasts being taken away only when Christ returns and the final beast is thrown into the LOF (which would naturally involve the question of whether or not the GWT comes only a thousand years after the beast is thrown into the LOF).

 

[Zao is life]

Oh, so you're accusing me of having weak faith and think I will fall away? And you accuse me of being rude and making false accusations? You're the blind one here. That's why you believe things that no one else does. God doesn't reveal truth to just one person as you think. You have blinded yourself.

1. He doesn't believe that "We Gentile Christians" have received the New Covenant yet. God is still "going to cut the New Covenant with us".
2. God is only going to cut the New Covenant with us once all unbelieving Jews living in Israel now, together with all unbelievers in the surrounding nations, have been annihilated and God has brought "the Christians into the promised land in the second Exodus".
3. There are more than a dozen prophecies in the Old Testament which have been highlighted and dragged out of their historical context and shoved into a folder labelled with whatever name this new kingdom is going to have.
4. It's in the Middle East (just in case you were wondering).
5. You and I and everyone else who knows he's a Christian because of the New Covenant and the blood of Christ which established the New Covenant, don't see "the truth of points 1-4 because we are spiritually blinded".

GROAN.