Whose Choice is Ultimate?

Whose choice is ultimate?

  • God saves us because we choose him. Our choice is ultimate.

    Votes: 1 11.1%
  • We choose God because he first chose us. God's choice is ultimate.

    Votes: 8 88.9%

  • Total voters
    9

Tree of Life

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Two people make real decisions in our salvation.
  1. God chooses to save us in Christ.
  2. We choose to embrace Christ freely offered to us in the gospel and so be saved.
There's no denying this. No Christian would deny this. Both Calvinists and Arminians agree to both (1) and (2).

The question is - whose choice is ultimate in our salvation? Which choice is the more important choice and the deciding factor in terms of whether or not we are saved?

Arminians say that God chooses to save us because we choose him.
Calvinists say that we choose God only because God has first chosen us.

Which position is the one that the Bible teaches?

John 15:16, 1 John 4:19
 
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ChristIsSovereign

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Two people make real decisions in our salvation.
  1. God chooses to save us in Christ.
  2. We choose to embrace Christ freely offered to us in the gospel and so be saved.
There's no denying this. No Christian would deny this. Both Calvinists and Arminians agree to both (1) and (2).

The question is - whose choice is ultimate in our salvation? Which choice is the more important choice and the deciding factor in terms of whether or not we are saved?

Arminians say that God chooses to save us because we choose him.
Calvinists say that we choose God only because God has first chosen us.

Which position is the one that the Bible teaches?

John 15:16, 1 John 4:19

Amen. A very much refreshing, if terse, message of hope in those who are in Christ.
 
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Doug Melven

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Which position is the one that the Bible teaches?
Your correct answer Scriptures are taken out of context.
This is what He chose them for.
15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
There is nothing in that verse about choosing for salvation.

4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Did He love just the elect, or did He love everybody in the world?
John 3:16 and Titus 2:11 will give you the answer you seek.
 
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Tree of Life

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Your correct answer Scriptures are taken out of context.
This is what He chose them for.
15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
There is nothing in that verse about choosing for salvation.

4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.
Did He love just the elect, or did He love everybody in the world?
John 3:16 and Titus 2:11 will give you the answer you seek.

Care to answer the OP?
 
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St_Worm2

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Which position is the one that the Bible teaches?
This passage, where St. Paul tells us that "we are turning to the Gentiles" with the Gospel (instead of continuing with the Jews alone) comes to mind:

Acts 13
44 The next Sabbath nearly the whole city assembled to hear the word of the Lord.
45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began contradicting the things spoken by Paul, and were blaspheming.
46 Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly and said, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken to you first; since you repudiate it and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles.
47 For so the Lord has commanded us,
‘I HAVE PLACED YOU AS A LIGHT FOR THE GENTILES,
THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE END OF THE EARTH.’ ”
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.


--David
 
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redleghunter

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Two people make real decisions in our salvation.
  1. God chooses to save us in Christ.
  2. We choose to embrace Christ freely offered to us in the gospel and so be saved.
There's no denying this. No Christian would deny this. Both Calvinists and Arminians agree to both (1) and (2).

The question is - whose choice is ultimate in our salvation? Which choice is the more important choice and the deciding factor in terms of whether or not we are saved?

Arminians say that God chooses to save us because we choose him.
Calvinists say that we choose God only because God has first chosen us.

Which position is the one that the Bible teaches?

John 15:16, 1 John 4:19
I always see this as the Creator and His relationship with His creation (us). Have to go with God's Sovereignty here.
 
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St_Worm2

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This passage comes to mind as well.

John 10
24 The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”
25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me.
26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."

--David

John 6
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws* him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

*ἑλκύω [helkuo] "draws" - drag, lead, impel, draw by inward power...(NOT δελεάζω [deleazo] "entice" - woo, allure, beguile, bait)
 
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Doug Melven

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Care to answer the OP?
I did answer the OP.
I just didn't answer the way you wanted me to answer
You wanted me to make a choice between the 2 options you provided.
Option A has pitfalls that a monergistic person will tear to shreds.
Option B is wrong because it implies man has no part in getting saved.
The truth is in between options A and B.
God wants everybody saved. He has provided everything necessary for us to get saved.
So, in that sense, it is all up to Him. If He hadn't of done what only He could do, become our Salvation,
nobody could be saved.
But, God will not set aside man's freewill to choose.
Once we choose life, His will gets accomplished and we receive eternal life.
If we reject Him, His will for our lives will not be accomplished.
Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 
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MDC

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Two people make real decisions in our salvation.
  1. God chooses to save us in Christ.
  2. We choose to embrace Christ freely offered to us in the gospel and so be saved.
There's no denying this. No Christian would deny this. Both Calvinists and Arminians agree to both (1) and (2).

The question is - whose choice is ultimate in our salvation? Which choice is the more important choice and the deciding factor in terms of whether or not we are saved?

Arminians say that God chooses to save us because we choose him.
Calvinists say that we choose God only because God has first chosen us.

Which position is the one that the Bible teaches?

John 15:16, 1 John 4:19
The biblical truth is that we choose God only because God has first chosen us. No believer will deny this
 
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MDC

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I did answer the OP.
I just didn't answer the way you wanted me to answer
You wanted me to make a choice between the 2 options you provided.
Option A has pitfalls that a monergistic person will tear to shreds.
Option B is wrong because it implies man has no part in getting saved.
The truth is in between options A and B.
God wants everybody saved. He has provided everything necessary for us to get saved.
So, in that sense, it is all up to Him. If He hadn't of done what only He could do, become our Salvation,
nobody could be saved.
But, God will not set aside man's freewill to choose.
Once we choose life, His will gets accomplished and we receive eternal life.
If we reject Him, His will for our lives will not be accomplished.
Luke 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
There’s no in between my goodness. Your choice is the first one. It’s obvious
 
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To answer the question as the ancient Christians would have thought of it:
When Christ chose to voluntarily suffer, was it His humanity that chose first, or His Divinity? If one or the other "chose first", then we have a divided Christ.

As the Person of Christ Himself is our salvation, Who Christ is is what our salvation is. If we cannot separate Christ into Divine and human subcategories, then we cannot put our salvation under the scalpal either. We choose God, and God chooses us. Anything else is reflective of a schizophrenic Christ.
 
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Doug Melven

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There’s no in between my goodness. Your choice is the first one. It’s obvious
No, it is not..
If I were to choose the first one, that denies God's work in saving me.
I cannot save myself. The first choice is Arminian, which I reject.
In synergism, both parties must play a part. We must cooperate with what God wants to do.
The OP should have a 3rd option that says please explain what you believe.
 
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MDC

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No, it is not..
If I were to choose the first one, that denies God's work in saving me.
I cannot save myself. The first choice is Arminian, which I reject.
In synergism, both parties must play a part. We must cooperate with what God wants to do.
The OP should have a 3rd option that says please explain what you believe.
Arminianism is synergistic. What’s the decisive factor or determining factor on why one comes to believe in Christ?
 
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Knee V

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Arminianism is synergistic. What’s the decisive factor or determining factor on why one comes to believe in Christ?

I am not going to claim to be an expert on Arminianism, but I do know that what most (nearly all) Calvinists call "synergism" is not synergism at all. I don't really know what to call the thing that you call "synergism".

Historic Christian synergism is rooted in the Person of Christ. Christ is simultaneously 100% man and 100% God. It is not zero-sum with Him. He is not 50% man and 50% God, or any other combination of percentages. Every action that he does is simultaneously 100% a human act and 100% a Divine act, with no separation or distinction.

Likewise, our salvation is not zero-sum. If I have faith in Christ, that faith is not 50% me and 50% God, nor is it 1% me and 99% God; nor is it, for that matter, 0% me and 100% God. If I believe in Christ, that faith is simultaneously 100% me and 100% God.

That is Christian synergism. Zero-sum "synergism" is not synergism at all.
 
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Doug Melven

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Arminianism is synergistic. What’s the decisive factor or determining factor on why one comes to believe in Christ?
Arminiam is synergistic. Synergism is not necessarily Arminian.
Arminian is a specific doctrine that is wrong.
Synergism encompasses various doctrines, some wrong, some right.

God made all of the moves He was going to make, getting everything set up. So, now after God did all He could do to pave the way for us to be saved, now we must make a choice.

I don't believe I have to be boxed into either choice presented. I choose the Truth.
 
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