Who's in Heaven and who isnt?

[blackribbon]

Back your opinions with the Bible. I know we won't really know until we get there, but which Bible people do we think are in heaven and which ones didn't get there?

Adam & Eve?

King Saul?

Queen Esther?

Jonah?

Judas?

add any others....

 

[dayhiker]

I think Adam and Eve are in heaven and Queen Esther and Jonah is in my opinion.

I don't know about Judas or King Saul as I don't know if they repented or not.

 

[blackribbon]

I think Adam and Eve are in heaven and Queen Esther and Jonah is in my opinion.

I don't know about Judas or King Saul as I don't know if they repented or not.

Old testament salvation...could it be lost?

 

[dayhiker]

I can't think of a verse in the OT that says salvation can be lost.

I do remember once reading verses about the judgment of nations where one prophet would pronounce judgment on a nation for how they treated people and then later a prophet said that nation would come to Israel and worship God. I found that really interesting as no one else had ever put verses together that way. Not even David Wilkerson who preached those type verse more than anyone else I know!

 

[blackribbon]

In 1 Samuel, Saul claimed that the Holy Spirit had left him and was silent to his prayers, and that is why he went to the Witch of Endor. But in the chapters before that David is very careful to not kill Saul because he was "anointed by God". I kind think that maybe his real punishment for his life choices wasn't loss of his salvation but rather his separation from God, watching David rise over him, and watching his sons all die in battle knowing that he was losing it too. Samuel did tell Saul that "tomorrow you and your sons will be with me" which could mean "dead" but it could also mean the location in Abraham's bosom...so waiting for Heaven. (1 Sam 28:19)

 

[dayhiker]

Good thought black ... But as you point out it isn't detailed enough to give a definitive answer.

 

[blackribbon]

What about Jonah? Out of curiousity, why to you easily say yes to him? He was pretty bitter at God at the end of the Book of Jonah...however, it obviously doesn't tell his whole life story.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Back your opinions with the Bible. I know we won't really know until we get there, but which Bible people do we think are in heaven and which ones didn't get there?

Adam & Eve?

King Saul?

Queen Esther?

Jonah?

Judas?

add any others....

Only those whos sins have been washed in the blood and whos received forgiveness from God and who are trusting, by simple faith, for it. As evidence for this being real and genuine, a definitive measurable change has taken place in the person which reflects Christlikeness, a definite repentence from sin lifestyles so we don't look like a worldly person any longer, and a zeal for serving God and others in many different ways utilizing our God given spiritual gifts .

We cant say FOR SURE who is saved and who is not for that is up to God alone to decide as a finality. But we can get a pretty good indicator who might be in accordance to the first paragraph , for, the NT says we can know the Sheep and Wolves by their fruits (deeds, actions, lifestyles, motives, etc....) .

When those get to heaven who were qualified, it will be a shock to see who didn't make it and who did , I believe. If the N.T. is true, which it is.....there will be MANY who did things for God / who read the Bible / who thought they were saved / but who didn't qualify because they choose to take on the appearance and actions of the worldly individual ......... thus they served a different 'master' in reality. God knows who did and the N.T. in particular gives such people stern warnings repeatedly so they have chance to truly repent (some will , some don't want to because they loved the world more than they loved God) . We choose our eternal residence, and God grants. Complete fairness and justice. So..let us choose very wisely for that eventual day of reckoning.

 

[blackribbon]

Obviously we can't say for sure...I made already made that point. But how did Old Testament people get "washed in the blood"?

And do you believe a person can loose their salvation then...if they loose some of that initial vigor for Christ?

 

[blackribbon]

Only those whos sins have been washed in the blood and whos received forgiveness from God and who are trusting, by simple faith, for it. As evidence for this being real and genuine, a definitive measurable change has taken place in the person which reflects Christlikeness, a definite repentence from sin lifestyles so we don't look like a worldly person any longer, and a zeal for serving God and others in many different ways utilizing our God given spiritual gifts .

We cant say FOR SURE who is saved and who is not for that is up to God alone to decide as a finality. But we can get a pretty good indicator who might be in accordance to the first paragraph , for, the NT says we can know the Sheep and Wolves by their fruits (deeds, actions, lifestyles, motives, etc....) .

When those get to heaven who were qualified, it will be a shock to see who didn't make it and who did , I believe. If the N.T. is true, which it is.....there will be MANY who did things for God / who read the Bible / who thought they were saved / but who didn't qualify because they choose to take on the appearance and actions of the worldly individual ......... thus they served a different 'master' in reality. God knows who did and the N.T. in particular gives such people stern warnings repeatedly so they have chance to truly repent (some will , some don't want to because they loved the world more than they loved God) . We choose our eternal residence, and God grants. Complete fairness and justice. So..let us choose very wisely for that eventual day of reckoning.

What are your feelings on Queen Esther? She was a member of the king's harem before he married her and she married outside of her religion to a pagan. So what does the "evidence" say about her salvation? sheep or wolf?

 

[dayhiker]

I guess since Jonah turned and carried the message to Ninivah after all he went thru to avoid doing what God asked him to do. I figure that God didn't give up on him and got thru to him on the other issues he was facing just as I suspect God will do for many others.

What about Jonah? Out of curiousity, why to you easily say yes to him? He was pretty bitter at God at the end of the Book of Jonah...however, it obviously doesn't tell his whole life story.

 

[blackribbon]

But the story didn't end with him bringing the message to Ninevah...it ends with him so mad at God "that he wished he were dead" because God did spare Ninevah. He fought God tooth and nail the entire story...I don't see a heart for God anywhere in that story.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Obviously we can't say for sure...I made already made that point. But how did Old Testament people get "washed in the blood"?

And do you believe a person can loose their salvation then...if they loose some of that initial vigor for Christ?

O.T. lovers of God were saved by looking forward to the Messiah that was to come , and they had the O.T. Prophecies such as Isaiah 53 , Psalm 22 , Micah 5:2 , and even Gen. 2 as their basis . The evidence they truly loved God was evident by their behavior, actions, motives, obeying the 10 commandments, and the many (614) O.T. Laws, etc...just the same as it is for N.T. CHristians today except the 614 Laws which was replaced by the new covenant of Christ crucified and we getting his imputed righteousness . . The sacrifices of animals in the O.T. for the shedding of blood was just a foretaste or stop-gap measure for the real Messiahs work who would give his life as a ransom for mankind.

No, a person cannot loose their salvation which is a free gift from God . God doesn't give us the free gift, then take it back , then give it again, only to take it from us again ; so long as our salvation experience was genuine by evidence of loving God, others, being zealous for serving God, and REPENTING from all known lifestyle sin .... then a genuine conversion took place. During our Christian Walk however, there will be times of waning which is normal...but that is not an abandoning of God and the atonement of Christ which we have applied unto ourselves . Ive never met a Christian whos Walk was a straight line or an upward line all the time....it is more like a wave line with ups n downs in our relationship with God. But God is faithful and loving, and he does not leave us because we are at the bottom of a wave in life. He hangs tough with us and rejoices when we are in good harmony and peace once again with him.

 

[blackribbon]

So if a Christian has an addiction problem, will the addiction suddenly be gone if he is following Christ? What they do manage to control it through repentance and then falls back into that addictive behavior and find it hard to separate? are they damned to hell ? or were they never a Christian in the first place?

 

[blackribbon]

O.T. lovers of God were saved by looking forward to the Messiah that was to come , and they had the O.T. Prophecies such as Isaiah 53 , Psalm 22 , Micah 5:2 , and even Gen. 2 as their basis . The evidence they truly loved God was evident by their behavior, actions, motives, obeying the 10 commandments, and the many (614) O.T. Laws, etc...just the same as it is for N.T. CHristians today except the 614 Laws which was replaced by the new covenant of Christ crucified and we getting his imputed righteousness . . The sacrifices of animals in the O.T. for the shedding of blood was just a foretaste or stop-gap measure for the real Messiahs work who would give his life as a ransom for mankind.

So what is your take on King Saul?...who once had a very close relationship with God and stepped away from being faithful (the reason God never wanted a king over Israel) Was he never "saved" even though he did love and worship God genuinely, did he lose his salvation, or was he saved in spite of his bad choices at the end of his life. Wolf or sheep?

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

So if a Christian has an addiction problem, will the addiction suddenly be gone if he is following Christ? What they do manage to control it through repentance and then falls back into that addictive behavior and find it hard to separate? are they damned to hell ? or were they never a Christian in the first place?

1. Not necessarily. The Addict could come to Christ and make him his/her Savior, King, and Lord....yet still have this addiction which came along with him ; but when a new Christian gets the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him/her, they have the power to overcome an addiction . God wants us all to be Overcomers of things that harm our Walk and Relationship with him., and he is only too willing to help us. It also requires OUR cooperation by wanting rid of the addiction (repenting) so we don't continue to be defeated by something that is not of God. As we allow God to quicken our Heart, we get supernatural power and zeal to come against anything bad in life . We come to Christ UNCLEAN, and he washes us and cleans us up . But we have to want that also.

2. Falling back into the same addiction after a time, is common with many People who are truly saved ; its because we are weak in our own nature and strength which is why we truly need God working in our lives and Souls. Some addictions require going to a Professional Counsellor whos had experience with the addiction ...other addictions can be handled relying on God and attending workshops like Celebrate Recovery , a national organization in all major cities , and also thru the soliciting of prayers and support from trusted Friends. God is patient with us when we slip away and he knows whether the slipping away is willful on our part or if we are just simply powerless . As fellow Christians, we should be there to help support the true Person who wants to beat the addiction . And expose the Person who professes Christ while desiring to live in the World instead of for Christ -- if we don't expose the person then the World gets a perverted view of Christianity and CHrist himself , plus...God has a far better plan than for his Churches on Earth being filled with hypocrites pretending to be Christians. The purpose in exposing such, is really an act of love so they can see the drastic error of their choices so they will repent and truly follow Christ. This is what God did with all of us by convicting us of our sin while we were sinning prior to coming to Christ..and in 1 Cor. 5 he is calling us to take loving measures by calling a Person on their willful habitual sin lifestyle --- the same that we should want for ourselves should we choose the world instead of Christ.

3, The Person who WILLFULLY turns back into a lifestyle sin addiction and who has confessed Christ , is an unsaved Person according to Gods Word in many places. A genuine submission and sorrow for ones sins when recieivng Christs free undeserved offer of forgiveness is different from a temporary moment of wanting Christ only to soon go back to the lifestyle of sin because you missed it and because it has become your true 'master' . Whatever is truly important to you, there your heart shall be also. A Person cannot serve both the World and God at the same time, for, he will hate one (ultimately) and serve the other.


The key to falling away temporarily, is to keep stayed on God and his love and promises and power to bring you out of it and to make it permanent . Christ came so we would be Overcomers of sin ...so sin wouldn't have power over us and keep us pinned down in enslavement regardless of how good it feels at the time.

 

[dayhiker]

If I understand how some prophets of God respond to God they seem to love to see God's wrath fall on sinners. But God's plan for Ninivah was for His mercy to brings about change. Yup, Jonah did missed God again and again and didn't like God being merciful. Its stories like this that really helped me understand this type of prophet. I don't have much in common with them. But neither do I feel comfortable saying they are not in the household of faith.

But the story didn't end with him bringing the message to Ninevah...it ends with him so mad at God "that he wished he were dead" because God did spare Ninevah. He fought God tooth and nail the entire story...I don't see a heart for God anywhere in that story.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

So what is your take on King Saul?...who once had a very close relationship with God and stepped away from being faithful (the reason God never wanted a king over Israel) Was he never "saved" even though he did love and worship God genuinely, did he lose his salvation, or was he saved in spite of his bad choices at the end of his life. Wolf or sheep?

Did he ultimately come to repentance and so restore the harmony in his relationship with God (?) Or, did he ultimately stay separated from God in his sin till the day he died and so didn't want God (?) . Which was it with him ?

God always is holding out his hand to us to repent and come back...and he makes it so very simple as in 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins " (thereby restoring relationship between us and him) .

 

[blackribbon]

1. Not necessarily. The Addict could come to Christ and make him his/her Savior, King, and Lord....yet still have this addiction which came along with him ; but when a new Christian gets the power of the Holy Spirit dwelling in him/her, they have the power to overcome an addiction . God wants us all to be Overcomers of things that harm our Walk and Relationship with him., and he is only too willing to help us. It also requires OUR cooperation by wanting rid of the addiction (repenting) so we don't continue to be defeated by something that is not of God. As we allow God to quicken our Heart, we get supernatural power and zeal to come against anything bad in life . We come to Christ UNCLEAN, and he washes us and cleans us up . But we have to want that also.

2. Falling back into the same addiction after a time, is common with many People who are truly saved ; its because we are weak in our own nature and strength which is why we truly need God working in our lives and Souls. Some addictions require going to a Professional Counsellor whos had experience with the addiction ...other addictions can be handled relying on God and attending workshops like Celebrate Recovery , a national organization in all major cities , and also thru the soliciting of prayers and support from trusted Friends. God is patient with us when we slip away and he knows whether the slipping away is willful on our part or if we are just simply powerless . As fellow Christians, we should be there to help support the true Person who wants to beat the addiction .

3, The Person who WILLFULLY turns back into a lifestyle sin addiction and who has confessed Christ , is an unsaved Person according to Gods Word in many places. A genuine submission and sorrow for ones sins when recieivng Christs free undeserved offer of forgiveness is different from a temporary moment of wanting Christ only to soon go back to the lifestyle of sin because you missed it and because it has become your true 'master' . Whatever is truly important to you, there your heart shall be also. A Person cannot serve both the World and God at the same time, for, he will hate one (ultimately) and serve the other.


The key to falling away temporarily, is to keep stayed on God and his love and promises and power to bring you out of it and to make it permanent . Christ came so we would be Overcomers of sin ...so sin wouldn't have power over us and keep us pinned down in enslavement regardless of how good it feels at the time.

What is the difference between returning to an addiction willfully and accidently? Are you saying that one who returns "willfully", loses his salvation. What about the people that just can't beat an addiction? They were never saved in the first place?

 

[blackribbon]

Did he ultimately come to repentance and so restore the harmony in his relationship with God (?) Or, did he ultimately stay separated from God in his sin till the day he died and so didn't want God (?) . Which was it with him ?

God always is holding out his hand to us to repent and come back...and he makes it so very simple as in 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins " (thereby restoring relationship between us and him) .

He was seeking God and God was ignoring him...that is why he went to the Witch of Endor to try to talk to Samuel to get help getting God back. (1 Sam 27-29, I believe)