Who's a moderate?

[bach90]

I'm pretty sure I'm a moderate, but I'm not sure who "qualifies" as one.

I'm open to most of the findings of higher criticism.

I'm not sure of the origins of life, but I'm definitely not a young-earth creationist.

I'm opposed to the ordination of women and gay pastors. I wouldn't call a church that ordains women to be apostate, but I think those that ordain gays are seriously in error.

The Scriptures are infallible, but not necessarily literal.

I think the Nicene Creed is the "standard" to which someone has to hold to be considered a Christian. I also think one must be a Christian to be saved.

So am I moderate, or do I just hold positions that manage to annoy liberals and conservatives at the same time .

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

So am I moderate, or do I just hold positions that manage to annoy liberals and conservatives at the same time .

I'm with you on that! My positions aren't all the same as yours, but they're the same in annoying liberals and conservatives at the same time!

(And for me, that's true in politics even more than in theology.)

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm pretty sure I'm a moderate, but I'm not sure who "qualifies" as one.

I'm open to most of the findings of higher criticism.

I'm not sure of the origins of life, but I'm definitely not a young-earth creationist.

I'm opposed to the ordination of women and gay pastors. I wouldn't call a church that ordains women to be apostate, but I think those that ordain gays are seriously in error.

The Scriptures are infallible, but not necessarily literal.

I think the Nicene Creed is the "standard" to which someone has to hold to be considered a Christian. I also think one must be a Christian to be saved.

So am I moderate, or do I just hold positions that manage to annoy liberals and conservatives at the same time .

I would definitely call you a moderate. You may have the dilemma of choosing which Lutheran Synod to be a member of. The ELCA is becoming increasingly liberal, especially in its recent actions regarding gay ordination, which would conflict with your views. OTOH, the LCMS is probably much more conservative than you are. Which Synod do you belong to?

 

[bach90]

Well, I'm a member of the LCMS. ELCA is simply way too liberal for me, like I said, I completely disagree with the ordination of gays to the ministry, but would not say that being gay is a sufficient condition to exclude one from being a member of the church.

 

[The Wildcat]

I'm pretty sure I'm a moderate, but I'm not sure who "qualifies" as one.

I'm open to most of the findings of higher criticism.

I'm not sure of the origins of life, but I'm definitely not a young-earth creationist.

I'm opposed to the ordination of women and gay pastors. I wouldn't call a church that ordains women to be apostate, but I think those that ordain gays are seriously in error.

The Scriptures are infallible, but not necessarily literal.

I think the Nicene Creed is the "standard" to which someone has to hold to be considered a Christian. I also think one must be a Christian to be saved.

So am I moderate, or do I just hold positions that manage to annoy liberals and conservatives at the same time .

It sounds like you're a moderate to me. I mean, I more or less hold the same viewpoints and I consider myself a moderate. I think moderates have an open-mindedness that many conservatives don't but perhaps some boundaries that liberals don't.

That's just my opinion though.

 

[Nienna_Lady_of_Tears]

I'm pretty sure I'm a moderate, but I'm not sure who "qualifies" as one.

I'm open to most of the findings of higher criticism.

I'm not sure of the origins of life, but I'm definitely not a young-earth creationist.

I'm opposed to the ordination of women and gay pastors. I wouldn't call a church that ordains women to be apostate, but I think those that ordain gays are seriously in error.

The Scriptures are infallible, but not necessarily literal.

I think the Nicene Creed is the "standard" to which someone has to hold to be considered a Christian. I also think one must be a Christian to be saved.

So am I moderate, or do I just hold positions that manage to annoy liberals and conservatives at the same time .

If left is liberal, and right is conservative I would say you are on the right side of true moderate. Still, I'm sure there are some conservatives your positions tend to anger.

Here are my positions:

The Bible is Infallible but some parts are not necessarily literal.
I do not believe a woman is to teach but I have no problem with her in other areas of church leadership (worship leader, women's pastor, church counselor, etc.)
Jesus takes us AS WE ARE and changes us. We do not need to get all of our ducks in a row before we come to Him, regardless of what our sin is (yes, even homosexuality. I know of conservatives who won't let a person be baptized until they have stopped "sinning", well at least the "major" sins.)
Marriage has become more about the legal paperwork than the commitment, and while I would not agree that a homosexual couple is married if they want the paperwork that will give them the same rights as truly married people, fine. I do not believe it to be right to revoke their right to choose who inherits their estate, who can make medical decisions for them, and other legal decisions based on the fact that they were in a same sex relationship.
I do not condone homosexuality nor do I believe it is right to treat homosexuals like crap. If we treated every sinner as a PERSON instead of a sinner, we might be able to share the love of Christ.

 

[bach90]

If left is liberal, and right is conservative I would say you are on the right side of true moderate. Still, I'm sure there are some conservatives your positions tend to anger.

Here are my positions:

The Bible is Infallible but some parts are not necessarily literal.
I do not believe a woman is to teach but I have no problem with her in other areas of church leadership (worship leader, women's pastor, church counselor, etc.)
Jesus takes us AS WE ARE and changes us. We do not need to get all of our ducks in a row before we come to Him, regardless of what our sin is (yes, even homosexuality. I know of conservatives who won't let a person be baptized until they have stopped "sinning", well at least the "major" sins.)
Marriage has become more about the legal paperwork than the commitment, and while I would not agree that a homosexual couple is married if they want the paperwork that will give them the same rights as truly married people, fine. I do not believe it to be right to revoke their right to choose who inherits their estate, who can make medical decisions for them, and other legal decisions based on the fact that they were in a same sex relationship.
I do not condone homosexuality nor do I believe it is right to treat homosexuals like crap. If we treated every sinner as a PERSON instead of a sinner, we might be able to share the love of Christ.

I would agree with most of this, except allowing gay marriage. There are certain rights which should only be granted to a man and a woman living in union and it's in the practical interest of the state to support this union (a purely political and not theological/moral statement).

Yes, we need to treat people with dignity, not make them feel like garbage. The way certain people are treated by the extreme right and left disgusts me. On the right, a person who is struggling with this issue is essentially demonized and shamed, on the left, somebody with an honest disagreement is labelled a Nazi or KKK member.

 

[WannaWitness]

So am I moderate, or do I just hold positions that manage to annoy liberals and conservatives at the same time .

I can totally relate to what you just said. I consider myself "moderate" in that I try my best to be understanding and open-minded about different opinions. But that, in itself, annoys the extremists on both ends who think of being "moderate" as being "wishy-washy". And while this can be true of some people, I don't think it's always that way. Sometimes a lot depends on the issue (both politically and theologically) and how any given person might relate to my stance on said issue. I find that on the political spectrum (or what I can understand of it, anyway) I hold views on both ends (socially conservative, but quite liberal when it comes to economic matters and health care issues, and not radical either way), and some other issues I find myself right smack in the middle, having mixed feelings regarding some, and others I have yet to search out. Now when it comes to certain issues regarding the Bible, theology, and Christian living, I personally think I am reasonably conservative, as I take the whole Bible as the infallible Word of God and believe that I, as a Christian, should try my best to apply it to my life as best I know how. But this also seems to be a matter of opinion, as sometimes it depends on the issue. And there are so many theological issues that are a matter of debate that if I named every single one, I would be writing forever. There are disputes regarding what dressing modestly is, what Bible versions to use or not to use, what types of music are okay for Christians to listen to, and somewhat deeper issues such as end-times views (pretrib, posttrib, etc.) and whether or not Spiritual gifts are for today's believers... the list is just endless. With me, I usually leave it up to whoever has had a chance to hear my views on a variety of topics (political or otherwise) and they can think what they want to about me. In the meantime, I am responsible for my own walk with the Lord, and if I am trying my best to serve and please Him and looking to His Word for guidance, that's what really matters.

 

[FireDragon76]

I returned to going to church last October, an Episcopal church. I had been an Eastern Orthodox catechumen, and I left because I became disillusioned with alot of Eastern Orthodox I encountered online that were pretty much fundamentalists or too conservative for me. I had reached a point, I felt, where there was nothing to be gained by trying to reconcile myself with that mindset. The gay issue was the one that bothered me- I have friends in the gay community. I don't agree that all gay relationships or behaviors are good, but I don't see being gay as a barrier to salvation. It's not so much because I think a gay lifestyle is ideal but I know my own life is far from the ideal too, and so are a great many other people (BTW, as an Orthodox Christian I actually tended to view celibacy as the absolute ideal and I never really thought of gay sex as particularly worse than any other kind of sex outside marriage).

I'm not sure if I'm really moderate or not. Sometimes liberal Protestantism's tone doesn't jive with me, I'm not individualistic enough I guess, and I take holiness too seriously and don't care for folks that think the resurrection was just a metaphor or Jesus just lives on in our hearts (I don't cotton to that at all) I suppose I'm on the liberal side of being a moderate, or the conservative side of being liberal.

Since November I've talked to my former Orthodox priest and we came to some clarification on things- he never really expected me to embrace a fundamentalist ideal of Orthodoxy and it was OK to disagree about some things. So sometimes I've thought about going back to that church. But I want to see if Episcopalianism can make a good home first. The trouble is, where I go to church is more conservative than the national Episcopal Church as a whole. They are firmly against gays participating in ministry, for instance, even thought they allow women as priests. In other areas, their biblical hermeneutic is very conservative too, and I'm more liberal and look to tradition and reason more than they do. I am not into the 1950's era ideals they seem to have about family life, either... Jesus didn't die to save Ozzie and Harriet or Leave It to Beaver, and if you look at his own life he was (we assume) a celibate guy that said alot of people should be eunuchs (!) and he wandered around with alot of guys. Sounds fishy, doesn't it? But that's my point, Christianity is counter-cultural, or it should be, anyways. It shouldn't be too domesticated ,and that's sort of what conservative evangelicals do with it: Jesus loves mom and apple pie and he's one of us.

 

[Tigger45]

Well, I'm a member of the LCMS. ELCA is simply way too liberal for me, like I said, I completely disagree with the ordination of gays to the ministry, but would not say that being gay is a sufficient condition to exclude one from being a member of the church.

You could try the (LCMC) Lutheran Congregations for Mission in Christ or the (NALC) North American Lutheran Church. They are both moderate Lutheran churches.

 

[UrbanContemplative]

I agree with a lot of what FireDragon76 said, and echo some of those sentiments. I most certainly consider myself a moderate.

Point blank: there are some issues where I am more liberal on, and some issues where I am more conservative on. For example, I take social issues like divorce, abortion and the sanctity of human life in general...and I am much more conservative.

Take things like the homosexual issue, I am more liberal, because as he said and as I wrote on another thread I am far from perfect myself.

Perhaps where I am the most 'liberal'; and where I have both been praised and criticized on this stance...is my views concerning other religions. While I firmly believe in the truth of the Bible and the salvation of Jesus Christ...I simply do not and cannot believe that all who practice other religions are bound for hell.

About this: many years ago I was in a theology class in an Evangelical setting and the professor said "The Dalai Lama may be a very good man, he may say some really nice things; but if he doesn't accept the Lord Jesus Christ as his personal savior he WILL burn in hell for all eternity." The statement, said so coldly and matter of factly shocked me. I thought, is this right? I'd never really thought about the issue up to that point. So...I started reading the Dalai Lama's books. What did he say? What did he believe? And let me tell you; when I started reading HH, much of what I read...made me a better Christian.

And for the next ten years and up to the present I've studied comparative religion. I've read sacred texts from all the major world religions, and I've traveled all over the world...and I've experience so many truths and such beauty in other religions and cultures that I simply cannot believe God would condemn all these people.

Paul said the Law is written on the human heart. I truly believe that. And CS Lewis in Mere Christianity even said that God will take what is true in another religion and sort of...make that the focus of other people's beliefs. In essence, He unifies their faith even though it is not directly in His name.

I look at all the violence in the world and throughout history because of religious squabbling and it deeply saddens me; when if you objectively study other faiths you will find that they say A LOT of similar things. You find that Law written on the human heart, see? Now some people have said I'm a universalist, or that I'm a syncretist. I'm not. If someone looks at my blog, or one of my school papers, or any of my writing (my school is evangelical and conservative) and I've mentioned things like the above or quoted from a different religion...I either get praise or I get those labels hurled at me.

But what I want to do is work towards a better understanding and a mutual respect between people of different faiths. When I go to seminary, God willing I'm going to specialize my MDiv in the seminary's interreligious contexts program; with the goal of doing interfaith work in my future ministry. I truly believe God has called me to this.

Thomas Merton is a great example of this for me. He was a pioneer in interfaith relations, and was actually friends with the Dalai Lama. See I believe when you respect someone else's tradition and you aren't beating them over the head and trying to convert them, they will come away changed...because that is what they've come to expect. You share your beliefs with them, but you don't preach at them. You look for places where you agree. This is why I have Buddhist friends and Muslim friends in real life. I have learned from them, and they have learned from me. So yes, you may see me quote the Buddha...but I love Jesus Christ with all my heart. It's just that I have also come to have the utmost respect for other traditions having studied them and seen so many cultures.

I can't help but be 'liberal' on this issue. I hope I don't offend anyone here with that even LOL. But it is very much a part of me.

 

[FireDragon76]

That's mostly how I feel on that issue. While I do believe Jesus Christ is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life", and I believe Christianity best describes my experiences of the human condition (more than Buddhism, which I have explored extensively and ultimately rejected),that doesn't mean I think people from other religions are bound for hell necessarily.

 

[UrbanContemplative]

I think that's a good view to take. It's as though we become completely arrogant when we proclaim otherwise.

Still, it's a difficult issue for many!

 

[zaida]

One thing I like about the Roman Catholic faith is its "inclusivism" in terms of salvation. The Catholic Catechism teaches that Jesus is the way to salvation. However, it also teaches that others are not necessarily bound for hell. It discusses the fact that Paul wrote about "the law of conscience as written in our hearts", and that people will be judged on what they know, and how they follow God to the best of their ability. And ultimately, the RC Church never says that anybody is in Hell - they take a consistent view that we have no knowledge of that - only God knows a persons heart. A Jewish person, Muslim person, Buddhist person might be saved - and if saved it will be through Jesus, in the end. And we must pray for everybody (yes- even the hitlers and osama bin ladens of the world!) Thats a tough one for people, but its what the Church teaches.

 

[Tigger45]

When I was attending an EO church their stance was Orthodox was the fullness of the faith but that no man can judge another man's heart. So they would never say someone wasn't saved because they weren't a member of the Orthodox church.

 

[Terry M]

I think the liberals would call me a bit fundimentalist and the fundimentalists would call me liberal. Not sure what the moderates would call me. I'm just trying my best to love God in the Trinity, and to love everyone else - including me (that's sometimes the hardest bit). I wrote a book called 'The Faith of an Ordinary Man' to try and explain my understanding of all this. For me, God's love - in all it's manifestations, in: nature, others, science, the Bible, me - His love is my lifeblood, and I've found Him to not only be the source of healing in my life, but also the source of 'life to the full' as Jesus promised. Bless you all.

 

[CMatt25]

One thing I like about the Roman Catholic faith is its "inclusivism" in terms of salvation. The Catholic Catechism teaches that Jesus is the way to salvation. However, it also teaches that others are not necessarily bound for hell. It discusses the fact that Paul wrote about "the law of conscience as written in our hearts", and that people will be judged on what they know, and how they follow God to the best of their ability. And ultimately, the RC Church never says that anybody is in Hell - they take a consistent view that we have no knowledge of that - only God knows a persons heart. A Jewish person, Muslim person, Buddhist person might be saved - and if saved it will be through Jesus, in the end. And we must pray for everybody (yes- even the hitlers and osama bin ladens of the world!) Thats a tough one for people, but its what the Church teaches.

The RCC does say in its CCC if someone knows the Catholic Church is necessary and does not enter or remain, they could not be saved. And "could not" is a past tense form of "can not". On a Catholic "answers" apologists forum I was told I was on my way to hell.

 

[debateableduck]

I also think one must be a Christian to be saved.

Define Christian.

I'm going to get nit picky on this, because I feel it's ambiguous.

So am I moderate, or do I just hold positions that manage to annoy liberals and conservatives at the same time.

How can a person manage this and avoid pluralistic relativism?

If we treated every sinner as a PERSON instead of a sinner, we might be able to share the love of Christ.

+1.

and I've experience so many truths and such beauty in other religions and cultures that I simply cannot believe God would condemn all these people.

Do you believe God saves all humans, in the end?

 

[Terry M]

Why are we getting involved in a "who's in? who's out?" argument. That's God's job, not ours. There's also a danger of thinking that we are 'in' and therefor more special than others - closer to God - and we know who's work this is. That's what the pharases thought. Let's get on with our own job folks - the secret to our own fullness of life - and a source of His love to those we meet, of patience and gentleness and encouragement. Let's be a 'dating service' for bringing people to our wonderful, forgiving, loving Father - not a source of judgment.

 

[TheDag]

The Bible is Infallible but some parts are not necessarily literal.

Out of curiosity how do you determine what should be taken literally and what should not? Not looking for a debate just how you determine it. If it is ok I may put it in a document I am writing for a friend on this topic. Naturally I would not include any info as to where I got the opinion but I would like to share more than just my opinion as mine is a unorthodox view partly.

Jesus takes us AS WE ARE and changes us. We do not need to get all of our ducks in a row before we come to Him, regardless of what our sin is (yes, even homosexuality.

so refreshing to hear this view.