Somehow I doubt that saying "Scripture" also meant to include the 27 books of the New Testament, which weren't universally recognized (in their entirety) for centuries after that was written.
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Who wrote the Bible?
- Thread starter sourdough
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Somehow I doubt that saying "Scripture" also meant to include the 27 books of the New Testament, which weren't universally recognized (in their entirety) for centuries after that was written.
Nephi pointed out in post #59 that “ …. individuals that assert that the Bible is inerrant usually refer to the autographa as being the only ones truly and completely without error.“
Regarding the “autographs : I think you are probably correct Nephi. However this claim is also one of those “hypotheses that cannot possible[y] be proven” that ebia refers to in his post #27 since we don’t have any autographs nor do we know what the original texts may have said.
However the poster Rockytova inadvertently provides us with an example of the error of the claim that those who created biblical manuscripts (and the bibles created from the imperfect manuscripts…
were “protected from error” as Root of Jesse (and others) so often repeat to us.
For example, Rockytova offers (in post #60) : “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. “ (2 Timothy 3:16 k.j.v.)
The greek of Tim 3:16 in ALL of the major uncials is : Πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προς ελεγμον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδειαν τεν εν δικαιοσυνη,... (c. Bezae has ελεγχον as the 9th word… instead of ελεγμον but it's insignificant to our point).
Can ANY of our greek readers in this forum possibly find or translate : “ All scripture is given…” in this greek?
Not only will greek readers NOT find this specific translation from the greek, it is simply not there.
One is hard pressed to understand how and why King James translators could have added this incorrect text to the bible they were creating unless they were trying to support personal dogma (in the same way Luther changed the 10 commandments and other verses in his first translation to a population he was trying to sway….
Such obvious errors are repeated throughout our biblical texts over and over and yet individuals base their theological interpretations and dogma based on such textual errors. They use such errors to argue polemics. They use such errors in arguments when rejecting accurate Christian theologies (and against historians) and such errors keep them from recognizing and accepting superior true principles.
Nephi : Regarding the “γραφη” - “writings” referred to in 2tim 3:16 you opined in post #61 : “I doubt that saying "Scripture" also meant to include the 27 books of the New Testament “
You are certainly correct on this. The context is NOT related to a hypothetical and future arbitrary “canon” that will not exist for another 300 years. IF it refers back to the “ιερα γραμματα" or "sacred writings” that Timothy had known “from his childhood” in the prior verse (15), then it refers to PRIOR writings (O.T. and O.T. epigrapha).
IF vs 16 refers to the PRINCIPLE underlying ALL sacred writings then it can be translated “All God-inspired writings [are] profitable for teaching…. etc” and does NOT refer to a specific set of writings, but rather to the principle of what makes writings sacred and valuable for religious use (i.e. the fact that they are based on inspiration from God).
The proper grammar is incomplete since a verb is missing in the greek in this sentence in ALL of the Uncials and SOME sort of verb must be assumed by a translator. (perhaps the early foundational writer of 2 Timothy was not good at greek as a second language...etc).
If the grammar within a manuscript makes a translation unclear, then I think it is only natural that translators tend to force a translation according to their own personal dogma and religious worldview as they translate into another language (which is what likely happened in the terrible and obviously erroneous King James Translation rockytova quoted).
Nephi, I honestly wish you the best of luck in your spiritual journey as you consider textual criticism. I do believe that no textual / historical discovery need upset any historian who has had the truth of Jesus as the Messiah confirmed to them by revelation.
clearly
eieitwnelk
Regarding the “autographs : I think you are probably correct Nephi. However this claim is also one of those “hypotheses that cannot possible[y] be proven” that ebia refers to in his post #27 since we don’t have any autographs nor do we know what the original texts may have said.
However the poster Rockytova inadvertently provides us with an example of the error of the claim that those who created biblical manuscripts (and the bibles created from the imperfect manuscripts…
were “protected from error” as Root of Jesse (and others) so often repeat to us.For example, Rockytova offers (in post #60) : “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. “ (2 Timothy 3:16 k.j.v.)
The greek of Tim 3:16 in ALL of the major uncials is : Πασα γραφη θεοπνευστος και ωφελιμος προς διδασκαλιαν προς ελεγμον προς επανορθωσιν προς παιδειαν τεν εν δικαιοσυνη,... (c. Bezae has ελεγχον as the 9th word… instead of ελεγμον but it's insignificant to our point).
Can ANY of our greek readers in this forum possibly find or translate : “ All scripture is given…” in this greek?
Not only will greek readers NOT find this specific translation from the greek, it is simply not there.
One is hard pressed to understand how and why King James translators could have added this incorrect text to the bible they were creating unless they were trying to support personal dogma (in the same way Luther changed the 10 commandments and other verses in his first translation to a population he was trying to sway…
.Such obvious errors are repeated throughout our biblical texts over and over and yet individuals base their theological interpretations and dogma based on such textual errors. They use such errors to argue polemics. They use such errors in arguments when rejecting accurate Christian theologies (and against historians) and such errors keep them from recognizing and accepting superior true principles.
Nephi : Regarding the “γραφη” - “writings” referred to in 2tim 3:16 you opined in post #61 : “I doubt that saying "Scripture" also meant to include the 27 books of the New Testament “
You are certainly correct on this. The context is NOT related to a hypothetical and future arbitrary “canon” that will not exist for another 300 years. IF it refers back to the “ιερα γραμματα" or "sacred writings” that Timothy had known “from his childhood” in the prior verse (15), then it refers to PRIOR writings (O.T. and O.T. epigrapha).
IF vs 16 refers to the PRINCIPLE underlying ALL sacred writings then it can be translated “All God-inspired writings [are] profitable for teaching…. etc” and does NOT refer to a specific set of writings, but rather to the principle of what makes writings sacred and valuable for religious use (i.e. the fact that they are based on inspiration from God).
The proper grammar is incomplete since a verb is missing in the greek in this sentence in ALL of the Uncials and SOME sort of verb must be assumed by a translator. (perhaps the early foundational writer of 2 Timothy was not good at greek as a second language...etc).
If the grammar within a manuscript makes a translation unclear, then I think it is only natural that translators tend to force a translation according to their own personal dogma and religious worldview as they translate into another language (which is what likely happened in the terrible and obviously erroneous King James Translation rockytova quoted).
Nephi, I honestly wish you the best of luck in your spiritual journey as you consider textual criticism. I do believe that no textual / historical discovery need upset any historian who has had the truth of Jesus as the Messiah confirmed to them by revelation.
clearly
eieitwnelk
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