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Who wrote genesis?

razeontherock

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The answer is we don't know. We definitely know Moses did not write Genesis. All one has to read is Gen 36:31-43 to know Moses couldn't possibly have written it.

Sorry but this makes no sense. The OP's question is due to Moses not being there when God said "let there be light." etc. And she's right. The post following where this quote came from puts it in proper perspective IMHO, and the more we learn of the culture the more of the richness of Christ we glean from these incredibly deeply layered stories. Yet another wonderful and powerful testimony to Divine inspiration.

Also consider while Moses was in the mount, just the incredible detail of the Tabernacle God showed him! How soon after the fact did he record all that? Genesis should be a snap by comparison.
 
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Korah

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Genesis, according to tradition was written down by Moses. Did he write it down in the exact form that we see in the Bible? Probably not.
Sensible. Likewise it is sensible that someone from Moses's time wrote down much of what is in the Pentateuch, because the story of the next several centuries (after Joshua, anyway) is rather scattered. Judges seems like a world unto itself.
Similar reasoning sets Genesis apart from the following four books of the Pentateuch. We know next to nothing about the centuries after the death of Joseph. Why would Moses know so much about the four generations covered in Genesis 12 to 50, if he had written it? It must have been originally recorded back then in written form that was available for Moses and others later.
It's easy to see who would have been in a position to know about and write about those four generations. All Jacob's sons would have known the history, but only Joseph was in a powerful position to get it all written in a form to be preserved for centuries.
Yet Joseph himself could not have written the last five verses of Genesis. This is not surprising. Joseph was in a position to commission the writing of Genesis 12 to 50. Those he assigned would have finished the tale and kept it among secure records. We know from Exodus that Moses was raised among the rulers of Egypt, so he could have learned about this and brought the record with him when the Israelites fled Egypt. Then he and others could add their own story.
It's interesting that in the whole Old Testament, no one is presented so favorably as Joseph. You would think that he cannot have been real. However, Joseph's underlings would have thought it best to present Joseph in the best possible light. (Maybe Joseph did have a flaw of liking to be flattered.)
An objection could be made that those 39 chapters of Genesis could not be a single record, because it contains doublets and triplets. Joseph would have known better than to tell the same story two or even three times. And the same problem occurs in the rest of the Pentateuch. But as I have stated above, the several centuries after Moses were at a lower level of civilization. The record taken from Egypt (Genesis) and what was written in Moses's time were probably forgotten about. When an Israelite kingdom was established under David and Solomon, we find greater literacy (I and II Samuel, I and II Kings). Interest revived in the old records, but apparently the language in them was a problem. Various attempts were made to translate the old records (presumably in Egyption hieroglyphics) into Hebrew. These translations were later combined without realizing that they told the same story in several different forms.
To recapitulate, Most of Genesis was written down at Joseph's behest, but it got combined with records from Moses's time, so the Pentateuch got to be called the Books of Moses. Thus they share a similar literary structure.
 
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Redneck12

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who possibly recorded the creation of everything, if people weren't invented yet?

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Moses is credited with writing the first five books of the Bible, though it is obvious they were edited by later scribes who replaced obsolete place names with more modern ones - such as in Genesis 14:4 where Abraham is said to have "pursued them unto Dan". Dan hadnt been born yet, and the city Abraham went to wasnt renamed "Dan" until the time of Joshua: "Jos 19:47 And the coast of the children of Dan went out too little for them: therefore the children of Dan went up to fight against Leshem, and took it, and smote it with the edge of the sword, and possessed it, and dwelt therein, and called Leshem, Dan, after the name of Dan their father."
So it is obvious later scribes replaced the obsolete name "Leshem" with "Dan" so people would know where it was much as we have updated the King James english.

also, something else that doesn't make sense...how did the population grow? we all know that incest leads to the offspring being disabled because the genetics are too close. so explain that one?

Doesnt matter whether you believe in creation or evolution - you have the same genetic issue here. In the beginning, no matter which you believe in, incest was necessary. As a matter of fact, it is only when the process is repeated over several generations that it becomes a problem.

First cousin marriage was very common in the early days of America, as there were a small number of settlers and it was necessary in order for people to marry.
 
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addo

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who possibly recorded the creation of everything, if people weren't invented yet?
It is written that God spake to Moses in the tent. He held conversations with Moses. He could have easily dictated to Moses Genesis. No serious problem. And it is agreed that the books were written by Moses, or at least most.
also, something else that doesn't make sense...how did the population grow? we all know that incest leads to the offspring being disabled because the genetics are too close. so explain that one?
Here is something interesting to read, that explains your problem:
Biological deformities

Today, brothers and sisters (and half-brothers and half-sisters, etc.) are not permitted by law to marry because their children have an unacceptably high risk of being deformed. The more closely the parents are related, the more likely it is that any offspring will be deformed.

There is a very sound genetic reason for such laws that is easy to understand. Every person has two sets of genes, there being some 130,000 pairs that specify how a person is put together and functions. Each person inherits one gene of each pair from each parent.

Unfortunately, genes today contain many mistakes (because of sin and the Curse), and these mistakes show up in a variety of ways. For instance, some people let their hair grow over their ears to hide the fact that one ear is lower than the other—or perhaps someone's nose is not quite in the middle of his or her face, or someone's jaw is a little out of shape—and so on. Let's face it, the main reason we call each other normal is because of our common agreement to do so!

The more distantly related parents are, the more likely it is that they will have different mistakes in their genes. Children, inheriting one set of genes from each parent, are likely to end up with pairs of genes containing a maximum of one bad gene in each pair. The good gene tends to override the bad so that a deformity (a serious one, anyway) does not occur. Instead of having totally deformed ears, for instance, a person may only have crooked ones! (Overall, though, the human race is slowly degenerating as mistakes accumulate, generation after generation.)

However, the more closely related two people are, the more likely it is that they will have similar mistakes in their genes, since these have been inherited from the same parents. Therefore, a brother and a sister are more likely to have similar mistakes in their genes. A child of a union between such siblings could inherit the same bad gene on the same gene pair from both, resulting in two bad copies of the gene and serious defects.

Adam and Eve did not have accumulated genetic mistakes. When the first two people were created, they were physically perfect. Everything God made was “very good” (Genesis 1:31), so their genes were perfect—no mistakes! But, when sin entered the world (because of Adam—Genesis 3:6, Romans 5:12), God cursed the world so that the perfect creation then began to degenerate, that is, suffer death and decay (Romans 8:22). Over thousands of years, this degeneration has produced all sorts of genetic mistakes in living things.

Cain was in the first generation of children ever born. He (as well as his brothers and sisters) would have have received virtually no imperfect genes from Adam or Eve, since the effects of sin and the Curse would have been minimal to start with (it takes time for these copying errors to accumulate). In that situation, brother and sister could have married with God's approval, without any potential to produce deformed offspring.

By the time of Moses (a few thousand years later), degenerative mistakes would have built up in the human race to such an extent that it was necessary for God to forbid brother-sister (and close relative) marriage (Leviticus 18-20).[12] (Also, there were plenty of people on the earth by then, and there was no reason for close relations to marry.)
(Source)
 
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who possibly recorded the creation of everything, if people weren't invented yet?
also, something else that doesn't make sense...how did the population grow? we all know that incest leads to the offspring being disabled because the genetics are too close. so explain that one?

If my memory serves me correct. We don't know who literally wrote down Genesis, as it was handed down by oral tradition for centuries before it was ever written.
 
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revanneosl

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The Book of Genesis is a composite of 4 earlier manuscripts. These 4 manuscripts were written (using earlier oral traditions) in about 950 BCE, 850 BCE, 600 BCE and 500 BCE. Then a series of editors (or "redactors") took the 4 manuscripts and wove them together over time until at last there was one book, the Book of Genesis, in about 450 BCE.
 
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Hentenza

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The Book of Genesis is a composite of 4 earlier manuscripts. These 4 manuscripts were written (using earlier oral traditions) in about 950 BCE, 850 BCE, 600 BCE and 500 BCE. Then a series of editors (or "redactors") took the 4 manuscripts and wove them together over time until at last there was one book, the Book of Genesis, in about 450 BCE.

Can you substantiate this?
 
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Korah

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Can you substantiate this?
R's Post #26 is the standard consensus of scholarship outside evangelical or EO or ultra-conservative RC circles.
I was never satisfied with this, as seen in my Post #22 above. In the last two paragraphs of #22 I attempt to reconcile my views with the consensus.
 
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wayseer

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R's Post #26 is the standard consensus of scholarship outside evangelical or ultra-conservative RC circles.
I was never satisfied with this, as seen in my Post #22 above. In the last two paragraphs of #22 I attempt to reconcile my views with the consensus.

While I find I generally disagree with Hentenza I find I am in agreement here and also question this so-called consensus.
 
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Korah

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While I find I generally disagree with Hentenza I find I am in agreement here and also question this so-called consensus.
Yes, the Graf-Wellhausen Documentary Hypothesis always seemed counter-intuitive to me. To me the OT Prophets seemed clearly later than the Pentateuch, but Wellhausen would have had the religion of the first five books as something retrojected back before the prophets, even though the prophets had come first. To get around this the Consensus developed that some of the documents had to date back to before the prophets.
But that still didn't explain why the Torah (these first five books) went back so far in time before the prophets, like half a millenium. This kept me looking for a way to date the writing of this Pentateuch back to the time of Moses. The problem was to recognize the existence of the doublets. I finally figured out how to do this and yet maintain basis Mosaic authorship. It's also why I can't accept the traditional claim that all five books were written almost in their present form by Moses. I do acknowledge the JEDP strands, probably even a fifth.
Returning to what the OP asked, the Creation chapter is attributed to the Priestly Source (P), the last to be written. The Consensus holds that the Six-Day Creation was written to honor the Sabbath, not the reverse. If Moses knew anything about it, he was the first man who did.
 
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wayseer

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Yes, the Graf-Wellhausen Documentary Hypothesis always seemed counter-intuitive to me.

It was not the matter of the Documentary Hypothesis with which I was concerned.

What rattled me was the statement ....

The Book of Genesis is a composite of 4 earlier manuscripts. These 4 manuscripts were written (using earlier oral traditions) in about 950 BCE, 850 BCE, 600 BCE and 500 BCE.

... which has no scholar support as far as I understand.

I would be interested if anyone can provide a reference.
 
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revanneosl

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It was not the matter of the Documentary Hypothesis with which I was concerned.

What rattled me was the statement ....
The Book of Genesis is a composite of 4 earlier manuscripts. These 4 manuscripts were written (using earlier oral traditions) in about 950 BCE, 850 BCE, 600 BCE and 500 BCE. Then a series of editors (or "redactors") took the 4 manuscripts and wove them together over time until at last there was one book, the Book of Genesis, in about 450 BCE.

... which has no scholar support as far as I understand.

I would be interested if anyone can provide a reference.

Honey - that is the documentary hypothesis - all nicely summarized - at least as I learned it in seminary back in the late 1980s.
 
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Hentenza

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Honey - that is the documentary hypothesis - all nicely summarized - at least as I learned it in seminary back in the late 1980s.

The problem is that the bible itself disproves the JEDP theory.

1. In Mark 12:26 Jesus plainly says that Moses wrote the account of the burning bush which is contained in Exodus 3.

2, Luke, in Acts 3:22, comments on a passage in Deut. 18:15 and credits Moses as being the author.

3. Paul, in Romans 10:5, talks about the righteousness Moses describes in Leviticus 18:5. Paul, therefore, testifies that Moses is the author of Leviticus.

4. The books of Moses, as understood by all ancient Jewish and Christian scholars, contains the 5 books of the Torah which were placed in the ark of the Covenant. There is no dispute among them that Moses was the author of all 5 books.

So, for the JEDP theory to be right, then not only would all ancient Jewish and Christian scholars be in error but also Jesus, Luke, and Paul. Is a slippery slope at best.
 
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wayseer

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The problem is that the bible itself disproves the JEDP theory.

1. In Mark 12:26 Jesus plainly says that Moses wrote the account of the burning bush which is contained in Exodus 3.

2, Luke, in Acts 3:22, comments on a passage in Deut. 18:15 and credits Moses as being the author.

3. Paul, in Romans 10:5, talks about the righteousness Moses describes in Leviticus 18:5. Paul, therefore, testifies that Moses is the author of Leviticus.

4. The books of Moses, as understood by all ancient Jewish and Christian scholars, contains the 5 books of the Torah which were placed in the ark of the Covenant. There is no dispute among them that Moses was the author of all 5 books.

So, for the JEDP theory to be right, then not only would all ancient Jewish and Christian scholars be in error but also Jesus, Luke, and Paul. Is a slippery slope at best.

Slippery or otherwise pretending the slope is not there is no longer a viable answer.
 
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Hentenza

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Slippery or otherwise pretending the slope is not there is no longer a viable answer.

You didn't address my post though. Are you saying that Jesus, Mark, Paul, and Luke are in error?
 
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wayseer

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You didn't address my post though. Are you saying that Jesus, Mark, Paul, and Luke are in error?

I didn't address that issue because you included it for personal ideological reasons and therefore serves no real purpose.

If you wish to discuss the theological issues involved please let me known. I would be happy to discuss.
 
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Hentenza

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I didn't address that issue because you included it for personal ideological reasons and therefore serves no real purpose.

Quoting bible verses that disprove the theory is personal ideological reasons?No. lol


If you wish to discuss the theological issues involved please let me known. I would be happy to discuss.

In other words, you don't have an answer to my post.
 
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revanneosl

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You didn't address my post though. Are you saying that Jesus, Mark, Paul, and Luke are in error?

Yes.

I am saying that we have learned a thing or two since the first century CE.

Jesus, Mark, Paul and Luke didn't know what we know about any number of things: biology, medicine, anatomy, physiology, geography, history, geometry, mathematics, chemistry, geology, sociology, germ theory, gravity, arithmetic, metalurgy, musical composition, physics, form criticism, text criticism, literary criticism, biblical scholarship...

...and on and on and on.

Jesus, though he was God incarnate, still functioned within the limits of a purely (merely) human life, with all of the limitations upon knowledge that were particular to the culture within which he lived. He didn't know any more about the Bible than any other Rabbi of the 1st century CE.

His divine self knew everything, of course. But his human self had no access to that knowledge.

So yes - of course - he was subject to the limitations of knowledge available in his culture.

We now know more than he knew then.
 
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Hentenza

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Yes.

I am saying that we have learned a thing or two since the first century CE.

Jesus, Mark, Paul and Luke didn't know what we know about any number of things: biology, medicine, anatomy, physiology, geography, history, geometry, mathematics, chemistry, geology, sociology, germ theory, gravity, arithmetic, metalurgy, musical composition, physics, form criticism, text criticism, literary criticism, biblical scholarship...

...and on and on and on.

Jesus, though he was God incarnate, still functioned within the limits of a purely (merely) human life, with all of the limitations upon knowledge that were particular to the culture within which he lived. He didn't know any more about the Bible than any other Rabbi of the 1st century CE.

His divine self knew everything, of course. But his human self had no access to that knowledge.

So yes - of course - he was subject to the limitations of knowledge available in his culture.

We now know more than he knew then.

Jesus had no limitations of knowledge, instead chose to cooperate with His human nature. He is 100% human and 100% God. It's interesting that you would say that He had no more knowledge of scripture than the 1st century rabbis rabbis and yet, he marveled them at the age of 12. I would say that Jesus had a dramatically higher understanding of scripture that the rabbis of His day.

You have no evidence that Jesus, Mark, Luke, and Paul erred. None. If you believe that then you believe that the bible is just a book written by men with no inspiration from God. Oh wait, you probably do. lol Really, you guys are getting way out there.
 
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wayseer

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You have no evidence that Jesus, Mark, Luke, and Paul erred. None. If you believe that then you believe that the bible is just a book written by men with no inspiration from God. Oh wait, you probably do. lol Really, you guys are getting way out there.

There is any amount of 'evidence' that there are glaring inconsistencies and outright historical contradictions.

As for Paul, one can readily appreciate the theological movement he made over the course of his letters.

The either/or argument won't wash in the 21st century.

If you wish to reject all scholarly advances then you remain anchored in the 1st century.

If you claim that Jesus somehow had a head start on everyone because of his 'divine' nature then you cannot legitimately claim he was 'fully' human - which goes against the creeds.

Erred? How would we really know? It was the various councils that constructed the theological base upon which Christianity rests - which is a long way from the theology of Jesus. If you wish to unpack that little lot you are welcome. But the facts remain that the sum total of the biblical texts are the work of men - men working under divine inspiration, but men never the less.
 
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