Who would've kill Cain?

[dazed]

Cain and Abel were the 3rd person and 4th person ever live on Earth. After Cain killed Abel and was banished, who and where did the people that Cain was so afraid come from?

Genesis 4:1 First instance that Adam knew Eve.
Genesis 5:4 Mentioned other sons and daughters but they were after Seth was born.

 

[zaksmummy]

Honestly, got no idea.

 

[St_Worm2]

Cain and Abel were the 3rd person and 4th person ever live on Earth. After Cain killed Abel and was banished, who and where did the people that Cain was so afraid come from?

Genesis 4:1 First instance that Adam knew Eve.
Genesis 5:4 Mentioned other sons and daughters but they were after Seth was born.

Hey again Dazed, one thing to keep in mind about Genesis is that it is not an exhaustive biography of Adam and his family (it was never meant to be), so most of the details of their lives are not included. As such, we must make our own logical inferences concerning details which the Lord did not consider necessary to the story He did want us to know. One of these deductions is the fact that Adam and Eve must have had many other children in the 100+ years between the birth of Cain and the birth of Seth, in obedience to God's very first command to us, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" .. Genesis 1:28.

We also know that there were no other people living on the Earth other than the descendants of Adam because of meaning of Eve's name, ".....she is the mother of ALL the living" .. Genesis 3:20b, so the people that Cain was afraid of were family members, brothers and sisters, cousins, and certainly, by the time of Abel's death, nieces and nephews as well.

Hope that helps!

--David

 

[drich0150]

Cain and Abel were the 3rd person and 4th person ever live on Earth. After Cain killed Abel and was banished, who and where did the people that Cain was so afraid come from?

Genesis 4:1 First instance that Adam knew Eve.
Genesis 5:4 Mentioned other sons and daughters but they were after Seth was born.

The bible does not say Cain and Abel was the 3rd and 4th person that ever lived. It simply points out that Cain and Abel were number 3 and 4 in the line that followed Adam and Eve. There were others outside of Adam and eve. (Those who Cain feared.)

 

[St_Worm2]

There were others outside of Adam and eve. (Those who Cain feared.)

Hi drich, when you speak of "others", are you referring to the beings talked about in Genesis 6:2 and 6:4? And if so, how do you believe the Bible links them to Cain as the beings he "feared"?

Thanks!

--David

 

[drich0150]

I made the observation that the sons of Adam or those who were descendant from Adam may not have been the only "people" Here. We do not know what was going on outside of the garden, nor for how long. The bible only tells us God made man in his own image. Meaning the descendants of Adam got what amounts to a soul.
The bible does not say Adam was the only human created. It says He was the one created in God's own image.
What could have been out there that Cain feared, were soulless Neanderthals (literally)

There is a large fossil record of man like creatures that one would have to be a fool not to account for. "We" also have 'holes' in our account of creation in passages like this one, or the wives the sons of Adam took. Moses was a smart man. If Seth and Cain married their sisters Moses would have told us this was what happened. Instead we were told they took wives. Where did they come from if Adam's family were the only man like creatures around?

 

[St_Worm2]

I made the observation that the sons of Adam or those who were descendant from Adam may not have been the only "people" Here. We do not know what was going on outside of the garden, nor for how long. The bible only tells us God made man in his own image. Meaning the descendants of Adam got what amounts to a soul.
The bible does not say Adam was the only human created. It says He was the one created in God's own image.
What could have been out there that Cain feared, were soulless Neanderthals (literally)

There is a large fossil record of man like creatures that one would have to be a fool not to account for. "We" also have 'holes' in our account of creation in passages like this one, or the wives the sons of Adam took. Moses was a smart man. If Seth and Cain married their sisters Moses would have told us this was what happened. Instead we were told they took wives. Where did they come from if Adam's family were the only man like creatures around?

What do we do with Genesis 3:20 then? That Eve ... "is the mother of ALL the living"!

Thanks again!!

--David

 

[drich0150]

What do we do with Genesis 3:20 then? That Eve ... "is the mother of ALL the living"!

Thanks again!!

--David

Are dogs living?

Is she the mother of dogs?

If no, ask yourself What separates us from dogs?
The answer:
We were created in the "Image of God" or rather we were given a living Spirit/soul.

I believe the "living" being referenced here refer to those who live in/with a Spirit. A "Soulless Neanderthal" would not count as "living" just like a Dog is not counted as a son of Eve. Drawing a breath and maintaining a pulse does not make one "alive." If it did then why didn't Adam and eve die the day they ate of the tree of knowledge? Remember, Adam drew breath for at least another 800 years.

 

[razeontherock]

Now that the necessary groundwork has been laid, here is the answer to the OP's question:

"it shall come to pass, [that] every one that findeth me shall slay me. Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him."


So the correct answer is: everyone and no one.

 

[dazed]

Now that the necessary groundwork has been laid, here is the answer to the OP's question:

"it shall come to pass, [that] every one that findeth me shall slay me. Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him."


So the correct answer is: everyone and no one.

Bless you for sounding like a Buddhist but how did that answer my question?

So my choices are:

1) God created other people, after He was satisfied with his works at rested on the seventh day.

I understood that it is a possibility because the Bible didn't mention that God didn't create anything else after he rested. It is safe to imply that He didn't create anything else. The Bible also mentioned that Eve was the mother of us all.

In a movie, if a character went to bed, we assume that he will have a nice breakfast after he woke up. We don't assume that character created a Picasso or went on a rampage unless there are flashbacks.

2) Eve had daughters for Abel to marry and multiply. And his offspring scattered around the Earth.

Again, the Bible didn't mention any of this. I got the impression that the First Couple and their offspring lingered around Eden. I also understood that Cain and Abel should be young men. How did I come up with that?

Adam was 130 when Seth was born. Assuming Adam was 20 when Cain was born, Cain could be as old as 110. But after Cain got banished, he went forth a muliplied 7 generations. For this to work, his offspring must procreated when the girls were 13 years old. 13 * 7 = 91. That would make Cain 19 years old when he first knew his wife. Even if Abel married his unmentioned sister, their offspring would only be about 4-6 years old. I doubt that a 19 years old male would be terrified of 4-6 years old kids.

In other words, I still can't figure out why would God put a sign on Cain.

 

[razeontherock]

Bless you for sounding like a Buddhist

I had no idea a Buddhist would sound like that!

but how did that answer my question?

Q: who would've killed Cain?

A: everyone (per Cain's fear) no one (per G-d's provision)

So my choices are:

1) God created other people, after He was satisfied with his works at rested on the seventh day.
2) Eve had daughters for Abel to marry and multiply. And his offspring scattered around the Earth.

In other words, I still can't figure out why would God put a sign on Cain.

Ya know, I have never crunched the #'s the way you did. It is rare to encounter someone who digs up a nook or cranny I have not considered! Yet your 2 listed options here are a textbook illustration of a false dilemma.

W/o doing the requisite fact checking let's just assume you're right, that Cain was 90 years older than Abel. (This doesn't at all seem right to me, considering) That leaves 70 years between them, for A & E to have an untold # of children, who then in turn have an untold # of children. Crunch those #'s and you could conceivably have some pretty large clans wielding torches and pitchforks

And while yet another possibility has been mentioned, I'll just point out you seem to be operating under the assumption that for anything to be excluded from the Bible, there needs to be a good reason. The opposite is true: exclusion is the default, and inclusion requires something of special significance. (Specifically as it relates to the unfolding of the Gospel as a means of joining man to G-d)

 

[drich0150]

Bless you for sounding like a Buddhist but how did that answer my question?

So my choices are:

1) God created other people, after He was satisfied with his works at rested on the seventh day.

I understood that it is a possibility because the Bible didn't mention that God didn't create anything else after he rested. It is safe to imply that He didn't create anything else. The Bible also mentioned that Eve was the mother of us all.

In a movie, if a character went to bed, we assume that he will have a nice breakfast after he woke up. We don't assume that character created a Picasso or went on a rampage unless there are flashbacks.

The accounts given of the sixth day include all of the creatures of the ground do they not? Does man or "other types men" preclude this group somehow? When were monkey and apes created? was it after the account of creation, or was it on the sixth day? Why would a soulless Neanderthal Monkey/man not be included on what was created on that day?

See my last post if you seek an answer to your objection you brought up with Eve.

 

[St_Worm2]

I made the observation that the sons of Adam or those who were descendant from Adam may not have been the only "people" Here. We do not know what was going on outside of the garden, nor for how long. The bible only tells us God made man in his own image. Meaning the descendants of Adam got what amounts to a soul.
The bible does not say Adam was the only human created. It says He was the one created in God's own image. What could have been out there that Cain feared, were soulless Neanderthals (literally)

There is a large fossil record of man like creatures that one would have to be a fool not to account for. "We" also have 'holes' in our account of creation in passages like this one, or the wives the sons of Adam took. Moses was a smart man. If Seth and Cain married their sisters Moses would have told us this was what happened. Instead we were told they took wives. Where did they come from if Adam's family were the only man like creatures around?

Hi Drich, sorry for the delay in responding directly to more of this. Here are a couple additional observations.

1) You said that Adam's lineage was different from other un-named humans who were around at the same time. But the Bible says, "Let Us make "man" in Our image ... "man" (literally "men" .. אָדָם) = "mankind" here ("male and female He created them"). Genesis 1 never teaches or infers that Adam is the progenator of a special line/kind of humans that alone were made in the image and likeness of God. Rather, it teaches that all men were made in the same manner from the beginning, does it not?

2) Isn't your statement that Neanderthals were human-like creatures w/o a soul simple conjecture as well? How can you know this?

3) Finally, as far as Moses not giving us all the details about Able and Cain's marriages, well, Abraham married his sister, a point that Moses apparently saw no reason to mention until it became a necessary to do so because of Pharaoh . The 'story' (if you will) was the fact that Able/Cain took wives. To mention that they were also marrying their sisters (or other close relative) was unnecessary since there were no others "after their kind" to marry at the time except other family members!

--David

 

[drich0150]

Hi Drich, sorry for the delay in responding directly to more of this. Here are a couple additional observations.
You said that Adam's lineage was different from other un-named humans who were around at the same time. But the Bible says, "Let Us make "man" in Our image ... "man" (literally "men" .. אָדָם) = "mankind" here ("male and female He created them").

I guess the interpretation of a Neanderthal or whatever was around depends on whether or not you consider these "type of Men" The "Man" God created in His own image.

Genesis 1 never teaches or infers that Adam is the progenitor of a special line/kind of humans that alone were made in the image and likeness of God.

As i point out in my first post, it is foolish to ignore a well founded fossil record. Regardless of how you categorize or "father" these Monkey men the fact remains they were there.

Rather, it teaches that all men were made in the same manner from the beginning, does it not?

Again it depends on whether or not you believe these "monkey men" to be "Man."

2) Isn't your statement that Neanderthals were human-like creatures w/o a soul simple conjecture as well? How can you know this?

Because Man was made in the image of God. And therefore given a soul.

Or if you prefer my answer in question form, Do monkeys have a soul? Then what would make you think a monkey/man would have a soul?

3) Finally, as far as Moses not giving us all the details about Able and Cain's marriages, well, Abraham married his sister, a point that Moses apparently saw no reason to mention until it became a necessary to do so because of Pharaoh .

But you fail to acknowledge that Abraham's wife status was reviled to the readers of Genesis well before it was revealed to Pharaoh. Given this pattern of record keeping, Their wives/sisters would have been made known to us.

The 'story' (if you will) was the fact that Able/Cain took wives. To mention that they were also marrying their sisters was unnecessary, especially in their case (since there were no others "after their kind" to marry at the time except their sisters)!

This explanation only works if you speak where the bible is silent. Plus you have to ignore where the bible speaks in the evidences of "other people."

If their were no "other people" then who was to live the city Cain built?

If it was just His wife and his children then why not simply build a house? Why build a "city?"


I am only pointing to the evidences of the presents of "others" in the genesis account. There is nothing to suggest that what we have labeled as "Neanderthals" were indeed the "others" the bible speaks about. At the same time, To ignore the obvious presents of "others" is to ignore the recorded account that Genesis actually provides.

As it is, we have a fossil record traditional interpretations of the book of Genesis can not account for. However if we simply take the Genesis account at face value we can indeed account for a great many truths "science" has uncovered.

 

[dazed]

I had no idea a Buddhist would sound like that!



Q: who would've killed Cain?

A: everyone (per Cain's fear) no one (per G-d's provision)



Ya know, I have never crunched the #'s the way you did. It is rare to encounter someone who digs up a nook or cranny I have not considered! Yet your 2 listed options here are a textbook illustration of a false dilemma.

W/o doing the requisite fact checking let's just assume you're right, that Cain was 90 years older than Abel. (This doesn't at all seem right to me, considering) That leaves 70 years between them, for A & E to have an untold # of children, who then in turn have an untold # of children. Crunch those #'s and you could conceivably have some pretty large clans wielding torches and pitchforks

Buddhists have an affinity of saying "having something is nothing, having nothing is having something".

Actually, I did not say such thing. I assume that Abel was a year younger. He could also be Cain's twin and be a minute younger since the Bible didn't exclude that possibility.


Descendants Adam's age
Adam's age, given. 130
Knew his wife and Seth was born 129
Jabal 15
Lamech 15
Methusael 15
Mehujael 15
Irad 15
Enoch 15
Time Cain fled 39

Cain's possible age at the time of killing = (time fled - Adam's age) is 24
Abel's age = (Cain -1) is 23
Abel's first possible offsrping = (Abel's age at time of death minus generation gap) is 8

Generation 15
Age that Jabal, et al, procreate is 14


Assuming Adam's age when Cain was born 15
Since the Bible didn't say it, Adam could be
1 year old when Cain was born but I'm trying
to be consistent with the generation break down

I assume that Cain was the first son. When A begat X in the Bible, it's always assume that X was the first son, unless there's an explicit mention of a sibling.

So, working backward, these patriarchs of Cain's descendants must have been 14 years old when they procreated. That's 14 years + 1 year of pregancy equals 14 year generation gap. The 15 year generation gap is a miracle in itself if that was true. That meant that all 7 first borns were male and they all survived. If the generation gap is more than 15 year, Abel could not have an offspring.

Even with all these miracles, Cain would be 24 years old, and Abel's first possible offspring would be around 8 years old. I don't know how many 24 years old would be so afraid of primary school age kids.

And while yet another possibility has been mentioned, I'll just point out you seem to be operating under the assumption that for anything to be excluded from the Bible, there needs to be a good reason. The opposite is true: exclusion is the default, and inclusion requires something of special significance. (Specifically as it relates to the unfolding of the Gospel as a means of joining man to G-d)

Let's see if I understand this quote. In other words, if the Bible didn't say it didn't happen, it could happen?

There are only a few reasons why things were not mentioned in the Bible.
1) It didn't happen
2) It happened but it was immaterial

In Genesis, the deaths of Adam, Seth, Cain's descendants were mentioned but not Cain, nor Eve. It's a possiblity then that Cain and Eve are still living? Technically, they could die a day before Judgement Day. Or maybe the Bible didn't mention their deaths because it was deemed immaterial?

 

[razeontherock]

So you see your problem with your thesis about what gets included. It doesn't work that way.