Who will win the Mars race?

JacksBratt said:

Hey, wait a minute, this doesn't make sense........investigates and finds facts that contradict a widely accepted fact....they are ridiculed.

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There are no facts contradicting the moon landing. It happened. There is more than enough evidence of it. As I said before, here in Australia our radio-astronomers pointed their dish at the moon lander and caught the TV signal.

Believing that millions of people perpetrated a hoax... well, I better not say what I think of that. So here's a video for you:

Radagast said:

There are no facts contradicting the moon landing. It happened. There is more than enough evidence of it. As I said before, here in Australia our radio-astronomers pointed their dish at the moon lander and caught the TV signal.

Believing that millions of people perpetrated a hoax... well, I better not say what I think of that. So here's a video for you:

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Obviously you have not investigated these events.

Of course you picked up a TV signal, they are not ignorant. You can "say" where it came from but it was broadcast as a TV signal..... from earth.

Millions of people did not and do not perpetrate this hoax. Of all the 7.5 billion people on this earth, only 500 (give or take) have been to space. One astronaut was going to spill the beans and he was burned in the space capsule during a pre flight safety drill. Another executive was to give a report to the media... he was going to spill the beans and was killed too.


Hey, look..... I watched it on TV in my living room as Neil walked down the ladder onto the moon.
I argued, as you are now, in defense of the whole issue.

However, there are far far too many reasons why it cannot have happened. Far too many pieces of evidence and far too much physics that has to be broken for it to have happened.

It's a lie. I consider myself a logical and fairly intelligent person. Too much of this tale insults my intelligence.

It took me a while to remove my blinders, remove my tunnel vision, to discard my cognitive dissonance, dump my ego and my pride and admit they had me fooled for a long time. . Not anymore.

JacksBratt said:

Obviously you have not investigated these events.

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I have.

JacksBratt said:

Millions of people did not and do not perpetrate this hoax.

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If you're right, the conspiracy includes:

• all of NASA
• everyone involved in retroreflector tests like the one in the video I posted
• everyone at the Australian radiotelescopes that received TV and radio signals from the moon
• everyone who's photographed landing sites on the moon
• and the list goes on...

JacksBratt said:

One astronaut was going to spill the beans and he was burned in the space capsule during a pre flight safety drill. Another executive was to give a report to the media... he was going to spill the beans and was killed too.

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Nutters on the Internet might say that, but that doesn't make it true.

JacksBratt said:

Hey, look..... I watched it on TV in my living room as Neil walked down the ladder onto the moon.

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Thanks to us Australians. You're welcome.

JacksBratt said:

You keep trying to label me with other beliefs and views. It's really not polite.
You don't hear me saying that due to your belief in satellites you must believe Iron man and Tony Stark are real...... do you?

Yes, I investigate the beliefs in things that others consider "conspiracies". This does not make me dumb or ignorant. It does not make me crazy or naive....

Dumb, ignorant, and naive people believe things they are told with no investigation into whether it is actually true or not. The accept what they are told, like good little brainwashed people. Do you believe everything the government tells you? How about the military? do you not think they keep facts from you and tell you lies?

Are you aware that almost all the astronauts are 33 degree Free Masons.... which means they are the highest members of a "secret" society..... Hmmmm do you think that they may tell you a lie, or keep facts from you?... That's what a "secret" is.

Then, if someone comes along and says "Hey, wait a minute, this doesn't make sense........investigates and finds facts that contradict a widely accepted fact....they are ridiculed.

I refuse to live in a society where there is new information, every day, that is researched by many people from many different walks of life and for different reasons...... and not investigate it.

I used to argue, passionately with a fellow worker, for the fact that we went to the moon. I thought he was not accepting of facts.

I had cognitive dissonance. I watched, as a young boy, as they stepped out of the lunar lander and walked on the moon. I even applied to my countries space program and wanted to go to space. I had been told since I was young all about all the science of space. I grew up with Star Trek, the real series.

So, until you have investigated it for yourself, I am not going to stay here and give you facts and reasons that show that we have been lied to.

You will just dispute them with the same information we have heard for 50 years.

Proverbs 18:13King James Version (KJV)

13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.

We have been lied to. We have been lied to and they have taken our money. How much of their "truth" is actually lies, is yet to be determined.

So, check your pride and your ego... open your eyes and toss all you have been told... see if it adds up. See if it is physically possible.

Not all of it is lies, that would be foolish... just enough truth to keep you believing the lies.

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Obviously, my dear friend, you have been sucked into believing these stories. Sad really.

God bless you

I guess I have to post this:

JacksBratt said:

Obviously you have not investigated these events.

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One of the surefire ways to tell that someone can't be dissuaded from believing in something is that he insists any dissent to his opinion is because of a lack of research into his arguments.

JacksBratt said:

However, there are far far too many reasons why it cannot have happened. Far too many pieces of evidence and far too much physics that has to be broken for it to have happened.

It's a lie. I consider myself a logical and fairly intelligent person. Too much of this tale insults my intelligence.

It took me a while to remove my blinders, remove my tunnel vision, to discard my cognitive dissonance, dump my ego and my pride and admit they had me fooled for a long time. . Not anymore.

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As someone with a degree in math and physics please let me assure you that you are about as wrong as you can be regarding the impossibility of 1960s technology reaching the moon.

I know in this day and age of the internet and Smart Phones we tend to have a misguided view of what exactly technological advancement is and we look down our noses at anything before the year 2000. However, from an engineering standpoint, some incredible things were built that serve as precursors and guides to us reaching the moon.

In no particular order: The airplane, transistor radio, the vacuum tube, The Empire State Building, the Golden Gate Bridge, The Titanic, supersonic jets, ICBMs, submarines, the Atom Bomb....

Now, unless you feel that all of the above was also a hoax, you'd see that actually going to the moon is within the same technology "level" as the above.

Lastly, most laymen do not understand how much further advanced mathematics and physics is in regards to engineering. The mathematics and physics for the majority of the technology and engineering we enjoy in our modern day lives was developed anywhere from 100 to 300 years ago (if not longer in some cases).

Even a lot of the principles within your fancy new smart phone are nothing more than just the application of the latest engineering materials to decades old (if not centuries old) technological processes and techniques.

Alas, I'm sure my post isn't going to dissuade you from your beliefs that you are smarter than billions of people and have figured out a truth that we are oblivious too.

It makes me sad that there exists people who honestly believe that the moon landing was a hoax. It is simply impossible to fake something of that magnitude. Might as well claim that NASA created a false eclipse the other week by putting a card board cutout in the sky...

dgiharris said:

As someone with a degree in math and physics please let me assure you that you are about as wrong as you can be regarding the impossibility of 1960s technology reaching the moon.

I know in this day and age of the internet and Smart Phones we tend to have a misguided view of what exactly technological advancement is and we look down our noses at anything before the year 2000. However, from an engineering standpoint, some incredible things were built that serve as precursors and guides to us reaching the moon.

In no particular order: The airplane, transistor radio, the vacuum tube, The Empire State Building, the Golden Gate Bridge, The Titanic, supersonic jets, ICBMs, submarines, the Atom Bomb....

Now, unless you feel that all of the above was also a hoax, you'd see that actually going to the moon is within the same technology "level" as the above.

Lastly, most laymen do not understand how much further advanced mathematics and physics is in regards to engineering. The mathematics and physics for the majority of the technology and engineering we enjoy in our modern day lives was developed anywhere from 100 to 300 years ago (if not longer in some cases).

Even a lot of the principles within your fancy new smart phone are nothing more than just the application of the latest engineering materials to decades old (if not centuries old) technological processes and techniques.

Alas, I'm sure my post isn't going to dissuade you from your beliefs that you are smarter than billions of people and have figured out a truth that we are oblivious too.

It makes me sad that there exists people who honestly believe that the moon landing was a hoax. It is simply impossible to fake something of that magnitude. Might as well claim that NASA created a false eclipse the other week by putting a card board cutout in the sky...

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Oh cr..! You've just started a new hoax! I can already picture the YouTube claims of faking the eclipse using cardboard cutouts!

Goonie said:

Oh cr..! You've just started a new hoax! I can already picture the YouTube claims of faking the eclipse using cardboard cutouts!

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Spare me your mockery. Everybody knows that cardboard doesn't work and that the giant cutouts were made of aluminium.

dgiharris said:

As someone with a degree in math and physics please let me assure you that you are about as wrong as you can be regarding the impossibility of 1960s technology reaching the moon.

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So, with your degree in math and physics, can you explain how a metal vehicle, the size of a car, shaped like a cone:

1/ fell through the atmosphere at thousands of miles per hour, with absolutely no fins or vanes and did not topple like a tumbling hat, but.... fell perfectly with the "heat shield" facing the direction of travel... This happened perfectly "every" time.

2/ Had a heat shield on the bottom that glowed red hot from the friction while three men sat inches away and were not affected by the incredible heat being generated? How do you dissipate that much heat from a metal object in that short of a distance from the heat source.... Hint: think frying pan.

dgiharris said:

I know in this day and age of the internet and Smart Phones we tend to have a misguided view of what exactly technological advancement is and we look down our noses at anything before the year 2000. However, from an engineering standpoint, some incredible things were built that serve as precursors and guides to us reaching the moon.

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Well, they must have been brilliant back then as they went to the moon with a computer that was smaller than the calculators kids use today.

Not to mention that, when asked, on record, a NASA astronaut said that they cannot go to the moon today because......"we have lost that technology".

dgiharris said:

In no particular order: The airplane, transistor radio, the vacuum tube, The Empire State Building, the Golden Gate Bridge, The Titanic, supersonic jets, ICBMs, submarines, the Atom Bomb....

Now, unless you feel that all of the above was also a hoax, you'd see that actually going to the moon is within the same technology "level" as the above.

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Thanks for following a standard operating procedure in dealing with people who expose flaws in truth.... You know I dispute the moon landings so you accuse me of, then, not believing in other achievements... such as the A bomb, ICBM's, submarines and such.....

This is classic.

dgiharris said:

Lastly, most laymen do not understand how much further advanced mathematics and physics is in regards to engineering. The mathematics and physics for the majority of the technology and engineering we enjoy in our modern day lives was developed anywhere from 100 to 300 years ago (if not longer in some cases).

Even a lot of the principles within your fancy new smart phone are nothing more than just the application of the latest engineering materials to decades old (if not centuries old) technological processes and techniques.

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That's a good point..... hence we can lose this technology we have had previously. Such as the technology necessary to go to the moon today.

Another good point you have made was calling us "laymen" and as such we are incapable of understanding complexities of science and technology.

This is a great way to say "you are to ignorant to understand how we achieved the ability to overcome that impossible obstacle"....

Like living and traveling through the Van Allen Belts in the 70's but we can't do it today,

or, how you blasted off of the moon with no rocket engines,

( yes, this little tent sized metal compartment blasted off of the moon, broke the force of the moons gravity, and had enough thrust to carry them into moon orbit.....meanwhile it took a Saturn V rocket to break away from the earths gravity that is only 6 times greater)

or how the astronauts didn't freeze or fry on the moons surface inside the tin can they went there in, considering that this was the 70's and the batteries they would have had to have to power their equipment for 22 hours would have weighed a ton..

or how they took a picture of the lunar lander, landing....

dgiharris said:

Alas, I'm sure my post isn't going to dissuade you from your beliefs that you are smarter than billions of people and have figured out a truth that we are oblivious too.

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Hey, hey now... nobody said anyone was "smarter" than anyone else. Well except you when you describe myself and others as "laymen".

Smarter is relative.... there are many smart, yet uneducated people. There are also people who don't have higher IQ's that are "educated".

This has nothing to do with intelligence. It has to do with thinking for yourself and having the ability to say...."these people that I trusted...took my money and lied to me".

dgiharris said:

It makes me sad that there exists people who honestly believe that the moon landing was a hoax. It is simply impossible to fake something of that magnitude. Might as well claim that NASA created a false eclipse the other week by putting a card board cutout in the sky...

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It makes me sad that people still believe these stories.

And, yes, you will not change my view anymore than I will change yours.

It's not that we figured out the truth...it's that they never expected us "laymen" to ever have the technology at our finger tips to prove them wrong.

They never thought that there would be this information super highway with high definition pictures that would be available to the general public and thus expose them for their hoax.

God Bless.

mindlight said:

If you build underground in solid igneous rock then you avoid most of the Mars side radiation issues. For that you need a tunnelling machine, something to coat the walls of the tunnels with to avoid toxins and the basic structures in which people will live which can go inside these natural or manmade caves.

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Living in underground tunnels is likely to cause some psychological issues, though, in the long term.

JacksBratt said:

fell through the atmosphere at thousands of miles per hour, with absolutely no fins or vanes and did not topple like a tumbling hat, but.... fell perfectly with the "heat shield" facing the direction of travel... This happened perfectly "every" time.

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It was designed to do that. Also, it had attitude thrusters.

JacksBratt said:

Had a heat shield on the bottom that glowed red hot from the friction while three men sat inches away and were not affected by the incredible heat being generated?

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There was a special ablative heat shield. Back in the 60s there was a great publicity shot of a kitten sitting over a roaring bunsen burner, with only a thin heat shield in between. The kitten felt no heat at all.

JacksBratt said:

Well, they must have been brilliant back then as they went to the moon with a computer that was smaller than the calculators kids use today.

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Enough for the job. And the computer wasn't crippled by running Windows.

And yes, they were brilliant. NASA recruited some of the best people in the country.

JacksBratt said:

or, how you blasted off of the moon with no rocket engines,

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The ascent stage of the lunar module had its own rocket engine, of course.

JacksBratt said:

( yes, this little tent sized metal compartment blasted off of the moon, broke the force of the moons gravity, and had enough thrust to carry them into moon orbit.....meanwhile it took a Saturn V rocket to break away from the earths gravity that is only 6 times greater)

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Kinetic energy is ½ m v^2. In this case, mass was 1/640 of the Saturn V, and escape velocity was 0.213 times Earth, meaning energy needed was 1/14,000 as much as for the Saturn V.

JacksBratt said:

the batteries they would have had to have to power their equipment for 22 hours would have weighed a ton..

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Actually, 360 kg -- a bit more than a third of a metric tonne. But they were very high-energy silver-zinc batteries -- basically giant version of watch batteries.

JacksBratt said:

or how they took a picture of the lunar lander, landing....

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That was taken by the third astronaut from the CSM, which was in orbit around the moon.

I thought you said you had "investigated" this? Not very well, obviously.

mindlight said:

Ummm they either turn into Morlocks who eat all new surface arrivals or as the human species has done so many times before they adapt.

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I see your Time Machine, and raise you a War of the Worlds:

"Well, it's like this," he said. "What have we to do? We have to invent a sort of life where men can live and breed, and be sufficiently secure to bring the children up. Yes--wait a bit, and I'll make it clearer what I think ought to be done. The tame ones will go like all tame beasts; in a few generations they'll be big, beautiful, rich-blooded, stupid--rubbish! The risk is that we who keep wild will go savage--degenerate into a sort of big, savage rat. . . . You see, how I mean to live is underground. I've been thinking about the drains. Of course those who don't know drains think horrible things; but under this London are miles and miles--hundreds of miles--and a few days rain and London empty will leave them sweet and clean. The main drains are big enough and airy enough for anyone. Then there's cellars, vaults, stores, from which bolting passages may be made to the drains. And the railway tunnels and subways. Eh? You begin to see?"

But seriously, experiments in isolation have indeed had negative psychological effects, even when there were windows to look out of.

If there is a way of making it work, of course, it could be tested underground first on Earth, and then on the Moon. It would be foolish to do it on Mars without having tested the concept.

Radagast said:

Living in underground tunnels is likely to cause some psychological issues, though, in the long term.

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Living on another planet in general will cause some psychological issues.

Nithavela said:

Living on another planet in general will cause some psychological issues.

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Probably... although nobody has actually done it yet.

Radagast said:

Probably... although nobody has actually done it yet.

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There have been some simulations with people living on a barren volcano in isolation, but of course it's not the real thing when you know that you could quit at any time and the next supermarket is only a 1 hour hike away...

Radagast said:

Probably... although nobody has actually done it yet.

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Also, the people on the ISS experience similiar circumstances. Cooped in into a tiny living space, surrounded by deadly circumstances, no way to get out without serious outside help.

Radagast said:

The Falcon Heavy launch demonstrates no such thing. We would need to also:

• design and test a Mars-going spaceship
• confirm that crew/passengers could live in a spaceship for a year or so without physical or mental harm
• design and test a Mars habitat
• confirm that colonists could live on Mars long-term without physical or mental harm (this includes developing and testing a food supply, and resolving problems of radiation exposure on Mars).

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It's probably possible to make a Mars landing as another Apollo-style stunt project, essentially a one-time deal.

But in a program of actual continued manned exploration of space absolutely needs a permanent orbiting construction and launch platform for deep space vehicles.

Doing a Mars landing right, for instance, would involve sending multiple vehicles nearly simultaneously. Unmanned vehicles sent ahead to provide equipment and supplies, then a substantial manned vehicle later. Essentially, we'd need to be at the "2001: A Space Odyssey" level of technology in orbit.

I'm personally not interested in a stunt Mars landing or anything else that does not begin with building a Von Braun-style permanent space station. That's the only way to be in it to win it.