Who was that masked man?

[Anthony]

Who is this man, that Joshua is refering to?

JOS 5:13 Now when Joshua was near Jericho, he looked up and saw a man standing in front of him with a drawn sword in his hand. Joshua went up to him and asked, "Are you for us or for our enemies?"
JOS 5:14 "Neither," he replied, "but as commander of the army of the LORD I have now come." Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence, and asked him, "What message does my Lord have for his servant?"
JOS 5:15 The commander of the LORD's army replied, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.

 

[RequiemForADisplacedLife]

An angel, I do believe.

P.S. Are angels winged or not? Just wondering....

 

[Anthony]

In Revelation 22:8-9, it indicates that worship of angels is forbidden; so why would Joshua be bowing down before and worshiping this Angel. This must not be no ordinary being.

 

[holyorders]

Wow. I'm going to have to check that out sometime.

 

[TAquinas]

The text infers that the man is God. As with Moses when he was about to start his mission he encountered God in the burning bush. When Joshua is about to start his mission, the conquest of the promised lands, he meets this man. Both he and Moses are told they are on holy ground and to remove their sandals. V 6:2 tells you it is the Lord.

Peace in Christ
TAquinas

 

[ZooMom]

Where does the passage say that Joshua 'worshipped' this 'man'?

 

[Anthony]

Where does the passage say that Joshua 'worshipped' this 'man'?

Then Joshua fell facedown to the ground in reverence

Joshua ...falls... facedown -----> in reverence to this Man

key words falls, facedown, in reverence

 

[Anthony]

Both he and Moses are told they are on holy ground and to remove their sandals. V 6:2 tells you it is the Lord.

Peace in Christ
TAquinas

It very interesting, that [1]they are told to remove there sandals in both cases, and [2] they're on Holy Ground. This is not common, and doesn't happen when regular angels appear.

 

[TAquinas]

NAB Jos 5:14 He replied, "Neither. I am the captain of the host of the LORD and I have just arrived." Then Joshua fell prostrate to the ground in worship, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"

Douay Rheims 5:15 Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, add: What saith my lord to his servant?

RSV also says worship

However it should be noted that it is also inferred that the angel could be Michael:

DR:15 "Worshipping"... Not with divine honour, but with a religious veneration of an inferior kind, suitable to the dignity of his person.

Depends on the commentary. The church makes no doctrinal statement concerning the passage.

If it's Michael, it obviously wouldn't be Latrian worship. In Revelation it makes direct reference in Johns case to John using Latrian worship.

Unfortunately those terms have fallen out of use in the modern age, so non catholics (and I dare say some catholics) won't understand them. Suffice it to say, Latrian worship is reserved for God alone.

Edit: Thought I would add this sinse I don't think most people are familiar with the terms. There are three types of worship in greek Latria, Hyperdulia, and dulia. Latrian worship is worship reserved for God alone. In modern times (english) we tend to just use the word worship in a very narrow field of vision.

Peace in Christ
TAquinas

 

[TAquinas]

Zoomom is also correct Anthony. If it is reverential then it is not Latrian worship, and why, if Michael, he isn't told to get up. He is being shown honor for his position. However the word has been translated both ways.

There isn't enough material for everyone to make a conclusive arguement, it is only speculation. However I just give what I think it is because of the echo of the Moses account.

The obvious downside is that God is present for all to see and physically leading the battle, which also lends credence to it possibly being Michael

Peace in Christ
TAquinas

 

[King of the Nations]

My money's on Michael...

*shrug*



Greg

 

[Paul S]

If it's the commander of the army of the Lord, that would be Michael.

 

[racer]

One word--Theophany. A physical manifestation of God before the Incarnation.

http://www.carm.org/misc/plurality.htm

A theophany is an appearance of God. God appears in the Old Testament in different ways: as an angel of the Lord (Acts 7:30-32; Exodus 3:2; Judges 2:1), apparently in physical form (Gen. 3:8; Exodus 24:9-11), in visions and dreams (Num. 12:6-8), and in flame (Judges 13:20-21).

 

[racer]

http://www.ondoctrine.com/00dictio.htm

theophany (Latin - Greek)
Meaning god appearing. The appearance of Jesus Christ, in human form, prior to His incarnation or birth in Bethlehem.

 

[TAquinas]

http://www.ondoctrine.com/00dictio.htm

theophany (Latin - Greek)
Meaning god appearing. The appearance of Jesus Christ, in human form, prior to His incarnation or birth in Bethlehem.

This is actually incorrect. A Theophany is God appearing as in the burning bush.

This definition is lumping a Christophany in with a Theophany. Personally I don't have problems with Theophanies.

I have discussed this with some protestant friends before and agreed that Christophanies in the OT present a few problems. Christophanies in the OT render the incarnation unnecessary, a pre incarnation of Christ.

A Theophany is representative of the trinity whereas a Christophany isn't, it represents Christ in human form, also extending to angelic form. Also it has the problem of making dogmatic statements about Christ where there is no clear evidence or indication. Unfortunately the carm site makes dogmatic statements where theologians-catholic and protestant alike, do not. Overall Carm isn't a bad site, but it does have some problems with it's theology.

Christophanies represent Christ outside of the triune Godhead before his incarnation. That brings up quite a few theologic problems, not only regarding the incarnation, but they also effect the prophesies concerning his incarnation.

Peace in Christ
Nicene

 

[Bushido216]

Someone called?

Sheepishly points to avatar.

 

[holyorders]

Someone called?

Sheepishly points to avatar.

 

[AMDG]

NAB Jos 5:14 He replied, "Neither. I am the captain of the host of the LORD and I have just arrived." Then Joshua fell prostrate to the ground in worship, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?"

Douay Rheims 5:15 Josue fell on his face to the ground. And worshipping, add: What saith my lord to his servant?

RSV also says worship

However it should be noted that it is also inferred that the angel could be Michael:

DR:15 "Worshipping"... Not with divine honour, but with a religious veneration of an inferior kind, suitable to the dignity of his person.

Depends on the commentary. The church makes no doctrinal statement concerning the passage.

If it's Michael, it obviously wouldn't be Latrian worship. In Revelation it makes direct reference in Johns case to John using Latrian worship.

Unfortunately those terms have fallen out of use in the modern age, so non catholics (and I dare say some catholics) won't understand them. Suffice it to say, Latrian worship is reserved for God alone.

Edit: Thought I would add this sinse I don't think most people are familiar with the terms. There are three types of worship in greek Latria, Hyperdulia, and dulia. Latrian worship is worship reserved for God alone. In modern times (english) we tend to just use the word worship in a very narrow field of vision.

Peace in Christ
TAquinas

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TAquinas again.

​

 

[racer]

This is actually incorrect. A Theophany is God appearing as in the burning bush.

This definition is lumping a Christophany in with a Theophany. Personally I don't have problems with Theophanies.

I have discussed this with some protestant friends before and agreed that Christophanies in the OT present a few problems. Christophanies in the OT render the incarnation unnecessary, a pre incarnation of Christ.

A Theophany is representative of the trinity whereas a Christophany isn't, it represents Christ in human form, also extending to angelic form. Also it has the problem of making dogmatic statements about Christ where there is no clear evidence or indication. Unfortunately the carm site makes dogmatic statements where theologians-catholic and protestant alike, do not. Overall Carm isn't a bad site, but it does have some problems with it's theology.

Christophanies represent Christ outside of the triune Godhead before his incarnation. That brings up quite a few theologic problems, not only regarding the incarnation, but they also effect the prophesies concerning his incarnation.

Peace in Christ
Nicene

True. The second definition I posted did say "The appearance of Jesus Christ." I agree with you that this should be a Christophany. Sorry, I didn't catch that misinformation. The first definition got it right though.

 

[TAquinas]

True. The second definition I posted did say "The appearance of Jesus Christ." I agree with you that this should be a Christophany. Sorry, I didn't catch that misinformation. The first definition got it right though.

The definition yes. However it does use the Judges 2:1 passage as a dogmatic statement. While I may think it is God, I make no such dogmatic statement because it is not conclusive. As I said earlier there isn't enough material for everyone to make a conclusive arguement, it is only speculation.

Going from speculation where there is doubt to making a definitive statement are two entirely different things. Carm takes the later approach. The first presumption in this would be that it is a theophany. If we start with the premise that it is a theophany, then the outcome will be a theophany. But if we start with the premise that we don't know, then the conclusion isn't clearly supported.

Where Carm errs, and they do this quite a bit and why I said it isn't a bad site but has some theologic problems, is that they make dogmatic statements about things which aren't clear, contrary to both protestant and catholic theologians. Private interpretation promoted as dogmatic doesn't allow our spirit to be checked. One says "I am not wrong no matter what others think", the other says "I may be wrong and need to have the spirit tested."

Peace in Christ
Nicene
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica][/font][/font]