Who was looking for that verse on the world being round?

[God Fixation]

It is Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth..."

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by God Fixation
It is Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth..."

A circle is unambiguously flat; "round edges on a flat thing" is not the same as "round thing in three dimensions".

And in fact, this verse used to be used as evidence against the round earth theory - never mind that we even had decent estimates of the Earth's diameter a fairly long time ago.

 

[sr. scholls]

You mean when the book of Isaiah was written? Over 2000 years ago? How can one sit on a flat thing with round edges? You would fall off.

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by sr. scholls
You mean when the book of Isaiah was written? Over 2000 years ago? How can one sit on a flat thing with round edges? You would fall off.

I'd have to compare exactly when it was, but the first estimates of the diameter of the earth that I'm aware of were *ancient* Greek. Certainly over two thousand years ago, perhaps not quite as much as Isaiah.

 

[jon1101]

Uhm, the said verse is a classic argument against the Bible. Circles are flat; the earth is spherical - the Bible's term either needs to be reinterpretted into ambiguity, or the Bible's wrong.

-jon

 

[sr. scholls]

Can someone tell me when the word and dimensions of the "sphere" were discovered? I'm sure it was much later than when the book of Isaiah was written, so I really don't see what you're trying to say. If that is an arguement AGAINST the Bible, then I am Santa Claus, because I don't see how it could possibly be against it if it is IN IT. Anyways, what I was saying is that the Bible said the earth was NOT flat before it was ever proven to be spherical. When it was discovered that the earth was, indeed, NOT flat, what was the EXACT term they used for it's shape and dimension? Are you POSITIVE they called the earth a sphere? Maybe the said that it was "round"(sounds very familiar),much like a circle is, imagine that. I'm sure that the terms they used back then were far different than today. But you still didn't respond to my statement. If the prophet Isaiah meant that the earth was just a circle, a two dimensional plane with round edges, then how could he have said that God himself sat upon it? He obviously meant "circle" as the modern word we use for a 3 dimensional object called a "sphere." So I'll ask it again....How is that an arguement AGAINST the Bible?

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by sr. scholls
Can someone tell me when the word and dimensions of the "sphere" were discovered? I'm sure it was much later than when the book of Isaiah was written, so I really don't see what you're trying to say. If that is an arguement AGAINST the Bible, then I am Santa Claus, because I don't see how it could possibly be against it if it is IN IT. Anyways, what I was saying is that the Bible said the earth was NOT flat before it was ever proven to be spherical. When it was discovered that the earth was, indeed, NOT flat, what was the EXACT term they used for it's shape and dimension? Are you POSITIVE they called the earth a sphere? Maybe the said that it was "round"(sounds very familiar),much like a circle is, imagine that. I'm sure that the terms they used back then were far different than today. But you still didn't respond to my statement. If the prophet Isaiah meant that the earth was just a circle, a two dimensional plane with round edges, then how could he have said that God himself sat upon it? He obviously meant "circle" as the modern word we use for a 3 dimensional object called a "sphere." So I'll ask it again....How is that an arguement AGAINST the Bible?

Okay, the word "sphere" goes back a *LONG* ways... not sure exactly how far, but probably well over 2500 years. The earliest measurement of its diameter I can find dates back to around 194BC.

Anyway, the concept of a "circle" as opposed to a "sphere" goes back probably just about all the way to the dawn of writing; it's not a hard concept. Isaiah probably predates the actual measurement... But nonetheless, the word "circle" is unambiguously a *flat* thing with round edges, not a sphere.

Thus, the argument goes, if the Bible talks about the "circle" of the earth, it is implying a flat earth... and thus, contradicting observable reality.

You can get away from this by calling it metaphor, or by saying that God doesn't bother to correct scientific issues, because He knows we'll sort them out eventually. It's a pretty weak attack, but it's occasionally relevant.

 

[BK]

If your standing on a chair in your kitchen and look down at a marble lying on the floor what do you see? You don't see the 3 dimensional sphere form. All you see is a circle.

 

[jon1101]

Santa Claus: Many arguments against the Bible are found within the Bible. Contradictions, for example, or verses that refute the obviously observable, like verses supporting a flat earth. The argument goes something like "they thought that the earth was a circle which shows that the Bible was just echoing the understanding of the time because the earth is actually a sphere."

I mean, you may be right that they were really trying say 'sphere' but it just came out 'circle,' but this is exactly what I was saying in my previous post. When the Bible says something that we don't want it to say, we claim the word(s) is/are ambiguous and reinterprett to fit our desires. Maybe some of these reinterprettations are right, maybe not, but the Bible cannot escape unscathed by ambiguity.

BK: Technically I would see a three dimentional object because my eyes work in tandem to contrast slightly different two dimentional images and thus create a three dimentional image inside of my brain.

In the end, I feel that this is most likely a moot point. Maybe the author meant horizen, maybe he didn't know how to say sphere. The verse is neither a strong proof for the Bible or against it.

-jon

 

[sr. scholls]

When it was discovered that the earth was, indeed, NOT flat, what was the EXACT term they used for it's shape and dimension? Are you POSITIVE they called the earth a sphere? Maybe the said that it was "round"(sounds very familiar),much like a circle is, imagine that.

What about this point? I seem to remember hearing alot on the history channel about headlines back in Columbus' day saying "the earth is not flat! it is round!" I know for a fact I have seen statements with the term about this with the term 'round', but I've never seen anything with 'sphere' in them. Either way, it is not our place to decide the meaning, but I'm certain that this verse of scripture does not prove a point against the word of God.

 

[sr. scholls]

Originally posted by BK
If your standing on a chair in your kitchen and look down at a marble lying on the floor what do you see? You don't see the 3 dimensional sphere form. All you see is a circle.

Or a 'round' object, which is an ambiguous term. A circle is round and so is a sphere. When I see a marble on the ground, I look at it and my brain says it's a marble, a small, round object. I don't necessarily say in my head automatically that it is a sphere.Someone else may, but I know of quite a few people who have never understood the concept of a 'sphere' as oppose to a 'circle. The way we think is not and never will be perfect. If we did, there would be no arguements about this.

 

[sr. scholls]

Once again, ANOTHER point I've made. When you looked at the title of this topic "Who was looking for that verse on the world being round?" Did you automatically think she meant "Who was looking for that verse on the world being spherical?"

 

[seebs]

Originally posted by sr. scholls
Once again, ANOTHER point I've made. When you looked at the title of this topic "Who was looking for that verse on the world being round?" Did you automatically think she meant "Who was looking for that verse on the world being spherical?"

Sure - because the contrasting "flat" position is generally held to mean a 2-dimensional surface.

However, a circle is clearly "flat" in the context of "round world/flat world", even though it might be round if the contrast were "square".

The word "round" has two meanings; only one applies to a circle, and the *other* applies to a spherical earth.

 

[sr. scholls]

Ok, I have a big problem following what you just said, because I've stated already that the word "round" applies to something spherical and something flat. So If you had read that, there wouldn't be need for any more discussion.

 

[sr. scholls]

After reading my previous post, it looks to me as it might have come off a bit harsh, sorry about that, I didn't mean it in that light. I was just saying that the only way we can really know is by looking up the literal Hebrew translation of 'circle.' When the bible was translated into the King James version it may have mistaken the original word. What I'm saying is, the word, in the time of it's translation may have meant sphere. But, like I said, the only way to find that out is to look up the original text of the word.

 

[God Fixation]

Originally posted by sr. scholls
When the bible was translated into the King James version it may have mistaken the original word. What I'm saying is, the word, in the time of it's translation may have meant sphere.

Not mistaken, but perhaps the usage has canged, which is most likely the case. There are so many words that's meanings have changed it's not even funny. For instance, the word mystery, meant in it's origonal english, "you will know" not, unknown or no one knows.

 

[sr. scholls]

But you see, what -I- meant was....lol, jk around.

 

[AV1611VET]

It is Isaiah 40:22 "It is He who sits above the circle of the earth..."

A circle is unambiguously flat; "round edges on a flat thing" is not the same as "round thing in three dimensions".

Wrong axis, Seebs.

Look at the earth from above the equator, so that it looks something like this:

Now, simply picture God observing the earth from above the North Pole.

The 'circle of the earth' reference could be what we call the Arctic Circle.

From God's perspective, you would see the earth like this:

... and, of course, it looks flat.

But the correct perspective is this:

Note again how this verse is written:

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

It is written as if you are a third-party observer -- an "outsider", so to speak; thus the last image above is the correct perspective.

 

[LifeToTheFullest!]

Wrong axis, Seebs.

Look at the earth from above the equator, so that it looks something like this:

Now, simply picture God observing the earth from above the North Pole.

The 'circle of the earth' reference could be what we call the Arctic Circle.

From God's perspective, you would see the earth like this:

... and, of course, it looks flat.

But the correct perspective is this:

Note again how this verse is written:

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

It is written as if you are a third-party observer -- an "outsider", so to speak; thus the last image above is the correct perspective.

It would be impossible for an omnipresent being to be any one place at any one time.

 

[Flatland]

If your standing on a chair in your kitchen and look down at a marble lying on the floor what do you see? You don't see the 3 dimensional sphere form. All you see is a circle.

Actually wrong; you would see a sphere.