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Neither ...Christian denominations agree that salvation comes through God's grace and Jesus Christ, but they differ on the role of faith and works, and how a person receives and maintains salvation.
Catholics emphasize faith expressed through active good works while Protestant Denominations vary, with many holding to "faith alone" (sola fide) as the primary path, though good works are seen as evidence of true faith.
The process can be viewed as a one-time event or a lifelong journey, and denominations like Reformed Christianity emphasize predestination, while Methodists focus on achieving entire sanctification.
Eastern Orthodoxy Theosis (Deification): Focuses on salvation as a process of theosis, or becoming united with God.
Means of Salvation: Achieved through the Church's mysteries (sacraments) and sanctification, viewed as a lifelong process rather than a legal or one-time event.
These are some of the views held by the various denominations, but which if any line up with what the Bible has to say about salvation.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". This verse establishes that humanity is inherently sinful and separated from God, making self-salvation impossible.
Romans 3:10-12 "As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one'".
These verses describe the universal fallen nature of man, confirming that no one naturally seeks God or performs righteous acts sufficient for salvation.
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". This verse directly contrasts salvation with human deeds, attributing it solely to God's mercy.
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast".
This passage explicitly states that salvation is a gift from God, and not something earned through human actions.
Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible”". In response to the disciples' question about how the rich could be saved, Jesus highlights that salvation is beyond human power.
Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to doing evil".
While referring to the difficulty of changing evil habits, this verse metaphorically suggests a fundamental inability to change one's corrupted nature without divine help, which is relevant to the concept of salvation.
Is salvation, by grace or by works or by a combination of both.
None of that lines up with the gospel message in my Bible.Man can't save himself, but he can refuse to be saved. This is at God's discretion, for our highest good. Man can respond to grace, to God, or not, or respond today and later turn back away.
The gospel is simple. We don't call Him but if we answer when He calls, we become His people, connected to the Vine, and He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. If we remain in Him, John 15:5, we will produce much good fruit-and that fruit, in fact, is the best evidence that we're one of His.
So, the nearer we draw to Him, the nearer He draws to us and the more like Him we become- the more we begin to love as He does to put it best. And that love is the true mark of our sonship as well as our justice/righteousness; it's the law fulfilled in us, and the authentic motivator for the fruit that separates the sheep from the goats. It's our purpose, the reason we were created. And that's our salvation, not just escaping the fires of hell but becoming something great and noble that God has had in mind for man since the beginning.
You've simply taken texts that were made for exhortation and encouragement, and that will certainly end up pertaining to some who've heard them, and understood them in a wooden, fundamentalist black or white manner and as applying specifically to yourself, and infallibly so, while ignoring any warnings and admonishments that are also in scripture.. And while believers can certainly have a strong level of assurance, supported by the presence of that aforementioned fruit, and while God is infinitely trustworthy and true, no one can predict whether or not they will end up as good soil with some kind of perfect and infallible, absolutely certainty. That has never been part of the Christian faith.
If salvation is not by grace, or by works or a combination of both, then how can anyone be saved. Simply denying all three views, while not offering any alternative doesn't help.Neither ...
If it is nether by grace nor by works, what do you believe to be the basis of salvation? I'm puzzled.Neither ...
We are saved by grace through faith, because everyone has sinned and falls short of the glory of God and His righteousness.Christian denominations agree that salvation comes through God's grace and Jesus Christ, but they differ on the role of faith and works, and how a person receives and maintains salvation.
Catholics emphasize faith expressed through active good works while Protestant Denominations vary, with many holding to "faith alone" (sola fide) as the primary path, though good works are seen as evidence of true faith.
The process can be viewed as a one-time event or a lifelong journey, and denominations like Reformed Christianity emphasize predestination, while Methodists focus on achieving entire sanctification.
Eastern Orthodoxy Theosis (Deification): Focuses on salvation as a process of theosis, or becoming united with God.
Means of Salvation: Achieved through the Church's mysteries (sacraments) and sanctification, viewed as a lifelong process rather than a legal or one-time event.
These are some of the views held by the various denominations, but which if any line up with what the Bible has to say about salvation.
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". This verse establishes that humanity is inherently sinful and separated from God, making self-salvation impossible.
Romans 3:10-12 "As it is written: 'There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one'".
These verses describe the universal fallen nature of man, confirming that no one naturally seeks God or performs righteous acts sufficient for salvation.
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit". This verse directly contrasts salvation with human deeds, attributing it solely to God's mercy.
Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast".
This passage explicitly states that salvation is a gift from God, and not something earned through human actions.
Matthew 19:26 "But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible”". In response to the disciples' question about how the rich could be saved, Jesus highlights that salvation is beyond human power.
Jeremiah 13:23 "Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard his spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to doing evil".
While referring to the difficulty of changing evil habits, this verse metaphorically suggests a fundamental inability to change one's corrupted nature without divine help, which is relevant to the concept of salvation.
Is salvation, by grace or by works or by a combination of both.
Or if you do don’t choose God, having been made into an elected automaton, you can glory in your election, I guess, while telling your friends that you’re luckier than they are because God chose you for Himself and eternal paradise, while your poor unbelieving friends He chose for suffering in the lake of, fire for all eternity.If you chose God, then you have something to boast about. You can tell your friends that you're wiser then they are because you chose God and eternal paradise, while your poor unbelieving friends chose to suffer in the lake of, fire for all eternity.
I’m not sure from your response(s) that you understand that there is a physical change in you when God gives you a new heart and makes you his own. It is a change that can’t be undone by us. He is sovereign over salvation. It is HIS salvation. He chooses, He changes, He gives us what we need to succeed. You don’t get to decide if you want it or not. There may be circumstances that you can voluntarily walk away from, but you are not unsaved because of it. It may be severe enough that God will correct you in some way, sometimes even by death, but you cannot make yourself unsaved. That’s what perseverance of the saints means.Your point was that we can know with absolute certainty that we're saved, and that's what I've been responding to.
"I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus." Phil 3:10-14
No, we do them because of the love He's placed into our hearts. And, again, we can fail to do them, we can fail to love. The power is there, but we may or may not remain there, with Him.
No doubt, although Paul's conversion was more dramatic than most. But even he could've failed. Quite unlikely, I'm sure, but, again, God is not into creating automatons- or He never would've let man fall to begin with. There's a reason for our freedom, and its a beautiful reason, because only with it can we become lovers as God loves, even as that love is a gift of grace to begin with at the same time. And that love, as we value it, continue to value it, grow in valuing it, then grows in us as we express it, with all kinds of good fruit resulting.
Just depends on how far and persistently we stray. If we begin sinning like the devil while calling ourselves a child of God, or abusing His mercy by using His forgiveness as a license to remain in sin. then we're mocking Him and the sacrifice of His Son. There's a line....that's all-and your freedom to cross it remains throughout your life, with challenges and tests and temptations that can be quite powerful. In any case the change, based on our relationship with Him as it is, must be real: we must love. Here's an example of the need to reciprocate with the love that's been shown us:
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. Matt 6:14-15
Well...yes, that's quite close to what I've been saying.
I've been through all that-I was AOG for several years. It was usually the "Are you saved?" or "Do you know you're saved"? crowd that I ended up unimpressed with, generally speaking. Now, all conversion stories in themselves usually have merit and are intertesting, informative, and helpful. But they're sometimes filtered through the lens of a particular theology that adds its own slant to things.
Yes, we all know that you can’t abide by the Doctrines of Grace. Thanks for reaffirming your position.Or if you do don’t choose God, having been made into an elected automaton, you can glory in your election, I guess, while telling your friends that you’re luckier than they are because God chose you for Himself and eternal paradise, while your poor unbelieving friends He chose for suffering in the lake of, fire for all eternity.
Or, knowing of the vital importance of this choice you may, instead, desire and seek the right choice from and for your friends, as Paul did,
“We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” 2 Cor 5:20
No, I said that I or anyone can abide by the doctrines of grace. You just have to know your doctrines. And I can help you there, pointing to the ancient sources, largely influenced by Augustine's arguments against Pelagianism.Yes, we all know that you can’t abide by the Doctrines of Grace. Thanks for reaffirming your position.
If it is nether by grace nor by works, what do you believe to be the basis of salvation? I'm puzzled.
If salvation is not by grace, or by works or a combination of both, then how can anyone be saved. Simply denying all three views, while not offering any alternative doesn't help.
FYI, the Doctrines of Grace are what you call Calvinism. TULIP = the Doctrines of Grace. All TULIP does is acknowledge and elucidate how God uses grace for salvation.No, I said that I or anyone can abide by the doctrines of grace. You just have to know your doctrines. And I can help you there, pointing to the ancient sources, largely influenced by Augustine's arguments against Pelagianism.
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