Who Speaks?

[Colter]

Well there you go. I suppose the Urantia Book for you has something of a sacred value and is, therefore, beyond serious question. If anything, including Scripture itself, contradicts the Urantia Book then Scripture must be wrong. But what if you're wrong? What if Scripture is actually the authority and the Urantia Book should be judged by Scripture?

Contemporary man had been discovering the errors of the priestly writings long before the UB occurred. It appears to me, although not stated within the Urantia revelation, that it occurred at this critical time of confusion to acknowledge the errors and unfortunate fetish making practice around the scripture over the course of Judaik Christuan history.

 

[Tree of Life]

I wouldn't use the term "authority" , attempts at establishing institutional authority is the foundation for a great deal of mischief. God is the ultimate authority, the priest class has often asserted itself between man and God.

Is there some way that God's authority is mediated to mankind? How can we know what God has truly said or what God truly wants for his authority to even be relevant?

 

[Tree of Life]

Contemporary man had been discovering the errors of the priestly writings long before the UB occurred. It appears to me, although not stated within the Urantia revelation, that it occurred at this critical time of confusion to acknowledge the errors and unfortunate fetish making practice around the scripture over the course of Judaik Christuan history.

And you know truth from error based on the UB?

 

[Colter]

Is there some way that God's authority is mediated to mankind? How can we know what God has truly said or what God truly wants for his authority to even be relevant?

Through his subordinate messengers and the indwelling spirit of the Father along with the other spiritual influences of God.
But hardened scripture authority leads to the sort of theology lawyers that rejected the message of Jesus and killed him.

 

[Colter]

And you know truth from error based on the UB?

I wouldn't say entirely so, but the UB is the most recent software update.

If someone said the moon is made of cheese I would naturally say no, I don't believe that.

If a scripture book said that I would think for maybe 1 second longer and say the same thing, no the moon isn't made of cheese.

When the Jewish Bible, written by Jews for Jews, says God became frustrated in something he created, then drown the whole earth....except an ancestor of the Jews, then I hear the same thing as claiming the moon is made of cheese. I don't know why more people don't.

So, the point is, common sense and scientific inquire play a part in truth perception.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I don't need to take someone's word that it is. I have personally tried it and found it trustworthy.

Isn't that also a feature of the best cons? That they convince you of their trustworthiness by initially giving (or appearing to give) you the results they claim and you expect, before abusing that trust...? Wouldn't a malicious entity (satan?) take that approach?

How can you independently verify this trustworthiness?

 

[GrowingSmaller]

Scientists may be a step closer to understanding the origins of human language.

Two studies suggest that the ability to combine sounds and words to alter meaning may be rooted in a species of monkey. (bbc news)

I am a Humean, a little bit. Morality is regulation of the passions, and "natual evil" is a limbic system (or amydgala?) response to hurricanes, fires, floods etc.

I think that ethics may have originated in primate alarm calls, a little bit.

So the Lord God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this,


“Cursed are you above all livestock
and all wild animals!
You will crawl on your belly
and you will eat dust
all the days of your life..."

"I seek protection from God against the Devil"- does this lead us - via a brain shift to institutionalised faith systems - from the limbic system to the neocortex where we can complexify our response to threats?

 

[anonymous person]

Isn't that also a feature of the best cons? That they convince you of their trustworthiness by initially giving (or appearing to give) you the results they claim and you expect, before abusing that trust...? Wouldn't a malicious entity (satan?) take that approach?

Sure. He is the father of lies.

How can you independently verify this trustworthiness?

For starters you can verify it by accepting the invitation to repent and trust in Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and enter into a personal relationship with Him. He is more than willing and able to confirm His word to those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.

 

[Locutus]

Sure. He is the father of lies.



For starters you can verify it by accepting the invitation to repent and trust in Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins and enter into a personal relationship with Him. He is more than willing and able to confirm His word to those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.

But how do you know it's HIM, and not an imposter? If you've never met the guy, anyone could turn up at meetings and claim to be he.

 

[anonymous person]

But how do you know it's HIM, and not an imposter? If you've never met the guy, anyone could turn up at meetings and claim to be he.

I've met Him. Since that day, He was been with me. His spirit bears witness with mine. He teaches me those things which He has written in His word. I love, because He first loved me and I have His peace and joy, not as the world gives, not as an imposter pretends to give, nor as Satan despises.

As far as someone showing up at a meeting claiming to be Jesus Christ, I guess I would just ask to see the holes in his wrists, feet, and abdomen. Or I could point to the fact that their claim contradicts the New Testament's clear teaching that Christ makes Himself known to men not by appearing before them physically in a meeting somewhere in a building made of wood or stone, but by His spirit convicting them of their sin, convincing them of the truths of the gospel, and indwelling them.

 

[Locutus]

I've met Him. Since that day, He was been with me. His spirit bears witness with mine. He teaches me those things which He has written in His word. I love, because He first loved me and I have His peace and joy, not as the world gives, not as an imposter pretends to give, nor as Satan despises.

As far as someone showing up at a meeting claiming to be Jesus Christ, I guess I would just ask to see the holes in his wrists, feet, and abdomen. Or I could point to the fact that their claim contradicts the New Testament's clear teaching that Christ makes Himself known to men not by appearing before them physically in a meeting somewhere in a building made of wood or stone, but by His spirit convicting them of their sin, convincing them of the truths of the gospel, and indwelling them.

you're a very literal person, aren't you

by 'meeting', I meant your private communings. you know, your head chat with Jesus. If you've never met the man, those inner voices could be anyone - even you!

in the meantime, if the bible teaches jesus won't show up in the flesh, how will the second coming play out? will Jesus be a no-show? will it be more like a second text message or email?

 

[Tina W]

A hypothetical question.

Imagine you encounter a vision. A figure shrouded in holy light appears before you, a brilliant halo on their head. They speak in a divine voice, and tell you that they are the holy spirit of the lord God. They then absolve you of your sins, and demand that you put your neighbors to death for the sin of adultery. You are given the feeling that you know this to be God speaking to you.

But who really just spoke to you? How do you know? How could you tell? How do you know it is not Satan, or some hypothetical other supernatural being?

You know that's NOT God because God would not tell you to kill anyone. Period. This is where having a relationship with God comes in and knowing His voice and knowing what He would not tell you to do. God would NEVER tell you to do anything contrary to His word and the Ten Commandments. And we all know the devil comes as an angel of light.

 

[Tina W]

And if they told you that the scripture is a lie, placed there by Satan to fool mankind? Again, how would you know who to trust?

I would trust the Word of God that was written for thousands of years before I was even born and the experience and testimony of countless people past and present, along with my own past experience, more than some apparition that just popped up out of nowhere that only I can see and who only told that to just me. My first thought would be that that is NOT God.

 

[Tina W]

But we're talking about supernatural beings with powers beyond our comprehension, including one character coloquially known as the "lord of lies". The idea that Abraham could know, simply from the personality of the person speaking, that it was in fact God makes no sense.

This really goes back to the same old claim. "I know." "How do you know?" "I just know." I don't know how Abraham could tell the difference between one supernatural being being honest and another trying to fool him. Just like I don't know how those who claim to have the gift of the holy spirit can tell that they are not being deceived.

That's because you're not a Christian. You have no spiritual eyes. You're like a person blind from birth trying to understand how we know the difference between orange and purple. LOL How could we possibly explain it to someone who's blind? And how could they possibly understand? You're trying to understand something that you don't have the sense (spiritual eyes) to understand. I don't know what went on between God and Abraham prior to God asking him to do that. All I know is God knew who to pick because He would have known not to pick me because it would not have been done. Period. God knew who to pick. It's not just about us knowing God, it's about God knowing us too and knowing who NOT to pick. Plus it was a different world back then and people thought differently about things.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You know that's NOT God because God would not tell you to kill anyone. Period.

What about Abraham?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

That's because you're not a Christian. You have no spiritual eyes. You're like a person blind from birth trying to understand how we know the difference between orange and purple. LOL How could we possibly explain it to someone who's blind? And how could they possibly understand? You're trying to understand something that you don't have the sense (spiritual eyes) to understand.

The problem, Tina, is that people often "see" very different things with their "spiritual eyes." Viewed through the "spiritual eyes" of a Muslim apologist, you are as "blind" as we are.

 

[The Cadet]

That's because you're not a Christian. You have no spiritual eyes. You're like a person blind from birth trying to understand how we know the difference between orange and purple. LOL How could we possibly explain it to someone who's blind?

Very easily? I have to go to work, but I could easily devise an experiment to show a blind person that "color" exists.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...He is more than willing and able to confirm His word to those who hunger and thirst after righteousness.

That's exactly what he wants you to think.. but can you be sure it's Him?

 

[anonymous person]

That's exactly what he wants you to think.. but can you be sure it's Him?

Sure.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I've met Him. Since that day, He was been with me. His spirit bears witness with mine. He teaches me those things which He has written in His word. I love, because He first loved me and I have His peace and joy, not as the world gives, not as an imposter pretends to give, nor as Satan despises.

Ah, OK. So you just know.

Interestingly, studies show that - despite the superficial similarities - children understand their invisible friends to be 'pretend', but understand God to be real. Whether this is because they are given external authority for God, or whether there is some neurological connection (e.g. shared neural pathways) remains to be discovered; neuroscience now has the capability to determine whether the same neural mechanisms are at work in both cases, and how they compare with such belief in adults. Perhaps we will soon know more...