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Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

Jase

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HAHA what?
There is nothing new under the sun, but feel free to share something they illumine that a thorough reading of scripture does not disclose?

Are you well versed in Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek, and have experience living in the cultures in which scripture was written?

Didn't think so.

Then clearly a thorough reading of scripture as you put it, is not so thorough. Your beliefs depend on your personal interpretation of what a conservative Bible publisher wants you to believe it says.

And of course, you believe God fully endorses that reality.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Are you well versed in Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek, and have experience living in the cultures in which the Bible was written?

Didn't think so.

Then clearly a thorough reading of scripture as you put it, is not so thorough. Your beliefs depend on your personal interpretation of what a conservative Bible publisher wants you do believe it says.

And of course, you believe God fully endorses that reality.
What about your own and your sect's interpretations?
And like noses, everyone has one
 
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simonthezealot

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And why should we assume you, or any other Christian today is interpreting them any better? If anything, I'd say Christian viewpoints have been more inaccurate in modern day. At least Augustine was smart enough to know telling a non Christian Genesis is literal is an embarrassment to Christianity.

Was he right about everything? Of course not. I don't agree with his views on sex or original sin. But the point being, no Christian, past or present is really in a position to claim their interpretation is necessarily superior unless they have the evidence to back it up.
Feel free to link the words you are attributing to Augustine...Not buying it, i've read much of his work.

Your second paragraph is ridiculous at face value...
[FONT=&quot]It is as if nobody can ever get to the real truth, that stand is very close minded...

[FONT=&quot]There are 2 things Paul talks about that indicate that we indeed are able to get to truth and recognize truth.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]He pens'[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Prove all things. Hold fast that which is good." Here are two great truths:

1st...The right, duty, and necessity of private judgment. "Prove all things."

2nd...The duty and necessity of keeping firm hold upon truth. "Hold fast that which is good."
[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]Furthermore Paul goes on to pen, a phrase that shows a higher authority for interpreting scripture is not necessary.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“If any man think himself to be a prophet or spiritual,let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord” (1 Cor 14:37)[/FONT]

I do consider myself a child of the most High God and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, therefore i think we (any true children of God) with studying and rightly dividing the word can come to the truth from God's word and can recognize those things which are the commands and doctrines of our Lord.
[/FONT]
 
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simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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Are you well versed in Ancient Hebrew and Koine Greek, and have experience living in the cultures in which scripture was written?

Didn't think so.

Then clearly a thorough reading of scripture as you put it, is not so thorough. Your beliefs depend on your personal interpretation of what a conservative Bible publisher wants you to believe it says.

And of course, you believe God fully endorses that reality.
Which ecf's were well versed in Ancient Hebrew AND Koine Greek? I want names_____ and proof.

You can pick ANY ecf and I can find at least one UNorthodox teaching they promoted. How is that any different than nowadays?


God does endorse that reality and He tells me so in scripture.
 
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G

GratiaCorpusChristi

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Which ecf's were well versed in Ancient Hebrew AND Koine Greek? I want names_____ and proof.

You can pick ANY ecf and I can find at least one UNorthodox teaching they promoted. How is that any different than nowadays?


God does endorse that reality and He tells me so in scripture.

Jerome was very well versed in both Koine Greek and Hebrew. His Vulgate was an attempt to correct earlier versions of the Bible in Latin which had been poorly translated from Greek Old Testaments.

Granted, I don't think Jerome was all that great.

I any case, the point isn't so much that they had better tools than us. It's that the communities of the earliest fathers were in direct continuity with the apostles. They writings they possessed were imbedded in performative experiences that interpreted them in ways far more authoritative than the canons of modern biblical exegesis.

But I've said all this already, and I don't recall you reacting to my response to your query in post 25.
 
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simonthezealot

have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?
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Absolutely. Lets not forget that letters weren't developed by a postal system. They were accompanied by people involved in the composition. And we know from ancient letter-writing customs that these deliverers would read the letter and add interpretive comments. So no, the case is not as strong as in the gospels, but again- texts are written with recipients in mind, and they are written in order to effect recipient interpretation given the assumptions one can make about the recipients. That's just how texts are written- all texts.
I understand what you're suggesting. So in the very 1st churches and writings this would hold true...But then for how many generations to follow can we trust the consistency of the story?"
 
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ViaCrucis

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Jerome was very well versed in both Koine Greek and Hebrew. His Vulgate was an attempt to correct earlier versions of the Bible in Latin which had been poorly translated from Greek Old Testaments.

Granted, I don't think Jerome was all that great.

I any case, the point isn't so much that they had better tools than us. It's that the communities of the earliest fathers were in direct continuity with the apostles. They writings they possessed were imbedded in performative experiences that interpreted them in ways far more authoritative than the canons of modern biblical exegesis.

But I've said all this already, and I don't recall you reacting to my response to your query in post 25.

There was also Origen's Hexapla.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Feel free to link the words you are attributing to Augustine...Not buying it, i've read much of his work.

"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although 'they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.'" - De Genesi ad litteram, Book I, ch. 19

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." ibid., Book II, ch. 9

St. Augustine believed the most commonsense reading of the opening chapter of Genesis was as an allegory, with which he expounds as the literal, or that is, normative, plain reading of the text. Augustine maintained, following a passage in Sirach, that all things had been created simultaneously, and these in seminal form; seeds with potential and growth--a primitive way of describing the observed phenomenon of similarities among things, in particular living things. An observed phenomenon that today is understood and explained by the theory of biological evolution.

The good Doctor's point still stands, however. And that is we summon upon ourselves unnecessary mockery--and thereby bring mockery to God's word--when we pontificate upon the Scriptures concerning things which were not the biblical authors' intent and which anyone with a small amount of learning in a given field could easily dismiss as the uttering of fools. It therefore becomes prudent to not forsake common sense or understanding with what reason the authors of Scripture wrote and what the Holy Spirit, through them, has sought to teach us concerning the invisible and holy things of God for us and our salvation; otherwise the result is what happens on a regular basis when, say, a flat-earther insists the earth literally rests upon pillars.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Gnarwhal

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We all interpret scripture, that would be my point. But unlike some others here, I don't pretend no interpretation is happening.

QFT, interpretation is inevitable whether we want to admit it or not. It can be mitigated by studying the historical and cultural contexts of the Scriptures but it doesn't change the fact that we're all prone to reading Scripture through our own unique set of lenses—lenses that are comprised of a variety of different personal and environmental factors.

Who really cares what anyone in this forum says?

Who really cares what any of the bible translators produce? They all just translate to suit their own subtle theological differences anyways.

Ah yes, the zeitgeist of CF. :p
 
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Tzaousios

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We all interpret scripture, that would be my point. But unlike some others here, I don't pretend no interpretation is happening.

There is much truth in this statement. Too many in GT purposefully conflate what in reality is an interpretation based upon theological presuppositions with "what the Bible plainly says."
 
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Christos Anesti

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There is a fairly widespread idea that everyone became an apostate at some early date in Christian history usually around the third of fourth century. I call it the Da Vinci Code school of church history. For that reason a lot of people look exclusively to the earliest writings they can find and mistrust anything after their cut off date for universal apostasy.

To me the date of a books authorship is only of secondary interest. A Saint is a Saint regardless of the era in which they lived in. A good book is a good book regardless of the era it's written in. Truth doesn't depend on date. In the Church I go to we talk about "the fathers" but rarely worry about adding "early" to the term. My Church officialy recognizes church fathers from the 19th and 20th century for that matter.
 
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simonthezealot

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"Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking non-sense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men. If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason? Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although 'they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion.'" - De Genesi ad litteram, Book I, ch. 19

"With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation." ibid., Book II, ch. 9

St. Augustine believed the most commonsense reading of the opening chapter of Genesis was as an allegory, with which he expounds as the literal, or that is, normative, plain reading of the text. Augustine maintained, following a passage in Sirach, that all things had been created simultaneously, and these in seminal form; seeds with potential and growth--a primitive way of describing the observed phenomenon of similarities among things, in particular living things. An observed phenomenon that today is understood and explained by the theory of biological evolution.

The good Doctor's point still stands, however. And that is we summon upon ourselves unnecessary mockery--and thereby bring mockery to God's word--when we pontificate upon the Scriptures concerning things which were not the biblical authors' intent and which anyone with a small amount of learning in a given field could easily dismiss as the uttering of fools. It therefore becomes prudent to not forsake common sense or understanding with what reason the authors of Scripture wrote and what the Holy Spirit, through them, has sought to teach us concerning the invisible and holy things of God for us and our salvation; otherwise the result is what happens on a regular basis when, say, a flat-earther insists the earth literally rests upon pillars.

-CryptoLutheran
Thanks. I understand his view, though i tried finding this at a reputable link like ccel and a few others with no luck...I think the point Jase was making is at odds with the point Augustin was making, Augustin's view says essentially we harm the reputation of scriptural authority when we loosely throw it out to UNbelievers whom by reason have a different view and that we should not use scripture to forward issues beyond their intention...
Jase on the other-hand seemed to be indicating that why should we believe anyone's pov/interpretation?
 
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simonthezealot

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There is a fairly widespread idea that everyone became an apostate at some early date in Christian history usually around the third of fourth century. I call it the Da Vinci Code school of church history. For that reason a lot of people look exclusively to the earliest writings they can find and mistrust anything after their cut off date for universal apostasy.
I disagree with this view, there are writers in every early century that I agree with and disagree with all through out the first 600 years. No different than nowadays, and I think if you speak with anyone who is fairly well read in the early years of Christianity they would agree with this as well.
 
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