Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

This thread's gone weird.

Montalban said:

If anyone is pretending its the person who believes that God wrote the Bible and that everyone is inspired by reading it

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Then there's pretending that people are saying what they aren't saying.

Pending genuine debate, I pronounce 'Tradition' stone dead.

calluna said:

Then there's pretending that people are saying what they aren't saying.

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You're not really saying anything, least not factual. You make a 'just-so' statement about everyone who reads the Bible

calluna said:

Pending genuine debate, I pronounce 'Tradition' stone dead.

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If you address any of the facts I've entered into this debate the debate would continue.

Unfortunately you don't. You can address the formation of the Bible, if you wish.

Anyway I'll ask this one directly
Can someone cite for me Biblical verses saying "Only rely on the Bible"?

But also your individual pronouncement is also part of the problem; Protestantism makes everyone a Pope. You're guided by the Holy Spirit - according to you - and your decision is validated by you validating it.

But also your individual pronouncement is also part of the problem; Protestantism makes everyone a Pope. You're guided by the Holy Spirit - according to you - and your decision is validated by you validating it.

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Pope LLOJ at yer service!!!!

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263302
The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church...

LittleLambofJesus said:

Pope LLOJ at yer service!!!!

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It does indeed.

People read into the Bible that the Holy Spirit will guide them if they call on the Holy Spirit - thus setting up a system that no matter what the person ends up believeing within Christianity is valid because the Holy Spirit must have guided them to that position.

No one's addressed the verse about "Lord! Lord"

Montalban said:

God didn't write the Bible. He inspired it's writtings.

Why would God sully himself with a donkey? Sounds very much like the 'golden calf'.

Get yourself a bit educated on the history of the Bible.

Take for instance this site which shows a large number of books that existed PRIOR to the compilation of the Bible.

The church sifted through these, based on Holy Tradition and decided what would, and what would not go into the Bible.

And some of the books they didn't include they didn't 'reject' outright - so for instance we can still be inspired by the Didache.

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The bible is God breathed. God did use a donkey but then if you don't read the scripture then I guess you would not know that. You make men more powerful that God sir and that is a lie. LOL For men cannot withstand to a Holy and all powerful God who is in Himself self sufficient. With out Christ there is not Church. It is not the ECF that neither made the church or are in authority over the church. Only Christ is for He is the head. He is the foundation that has been layed and no other can be layed. We are to be careful on how we build on this foundation.

The whole of the 66 cannon of the scriptures are indeed inspired or God breathed. This is why we read this

2Pe 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation,
2Pe 1:21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

Montalban said:

It does indeed.

People read into the Bible that the Holy Spirit will guide them if they call on the Holy Spirit - thus setting up a system that no matter what the person ends up believeing within Christianity is valid because the Holy Spirit must have guided them to that position.

No one's addressed the verse about "Lord! Lord"

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I did so.. Jesus said that He never knew them. Get it.. Many a man following after other men and their teachings and thinking that they are doing the will of God but when it comes down to it Jesus never really knew them.. We are to know Him personally and be known of Him personally and it is not in doing rituals that we find Christ. It is in a personal relationship with Jesus..

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

MamaZ said:

The bible is God breathed.

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I don't doubt this. However you, like many Protestants I've encountered seem to have a difficulty with understanding the difference between

"All of this message is from God" with "This is all the message of God"

The Bible says the first, not the second. Protestants believe the second - in their rejection of 'the message of God' that is in Holy Tradition

MamaZ said:

God did use a donkey but then if you don't read the scripture then I guess you would not know that.

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That's not true.

Rational objections, I've already raised - God would not be using a base creature
Other objections - you assume that all there is known about God is in the Bible

MamaZ said:

You make men more powerful that God sir and that is a lie.

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Where have I done this?

MamaZ said:

LOL For men cannot withstand to a Holy and all powerful God who is in Himself self sufficient. With out Christ there is not Church.

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Where have I said that one can have a church without Christ?

MamaZ said:

It is not the ECF that neither made the church or are in authority over the church.

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Almost right. Christ commissioned 12 to go out and preach. He didn't turn to all those that had always followed him and said to the masses "You've all heard me speak, go out and believe as you see fit".

MamaZ said:

The whole of the 66 cannon of the scriptures are indeed inspired or God breathed. This is why we read this

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Who said that God didn't breath on any non-Cannonical books?

You also repeat the mistake I noted above

MamaZ said:

I did so.. Jesus said that He never knew them.

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But that's what you're doing, you cry "Lord!Lord!" and expect that the Holy Spirit is behind you when in point of fact the verse argues against that.

MamaZ said:

Get it.. Many a man following after other men and their teachings and thinking that they are doing the will of God but when it comes down to it Jesus never really knew them.. We are to know Him personally and be known of Him personally and it is not in doing rituals that we find Christ. It is in a personal relationship with Jesus..

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So, Paul, being a man is someone I should ignore?

Why can't one have a persona relationship AND HAVE a communal relationship? After all the Bible tells that where three or more are gathered in his name there he is (Matt. 18:20).

BUMP

Montalban said:

Can someone cite for me Biblical verses saying "Only rely on the Bible"?

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Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

Pope LLOJ at yer service!!!!

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Montalban said:

It does indeed.

People read into the Bible that the Holy Spirit will guide them if they call on the Holy Spirit - thus setting up a system that no matter what the person ends up believeing within Christianity is valid because the Holy Spirit must have guided them to that position.

No one's addressed the verse about "Lord! Lord"

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That was also adressed to the JEWS not just "gentile" Christians such as us.

For example, who did Jesus address this to in Matt 21:43

Matthew 21:43 Therefore I am saying to ye, that shall be being taken-away from Ye the Kingdom of the God, and it shall be being given to a Nation doing the fruits of it.

Reve 12:8 and not He is strong, neither Place found of Them still in the Heaven.

Protestantism seems to lean towards relative truths. One has a personal relationship with God and whatever that is, is true

In the mid-1800s in China one guy declared he was inspired by the Holy Spirit and believed he was the younger brother of Jesus.

The LDS church was founded by someone claiming to be guided.

Originally Posted by Montalban

Can someone cite for me Biblical verses saying "Only rely on the Bible"?

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Montalban said:

BUMP

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Wonder where the Catholics are? Debating just Orthodox is no fun. Btw, the Catholics believe pagan Rome is that "Great City" in Revelation and is that because the ECFs believed that?.

What do the Orthodox believe about it?

http://www.scripture4all.org/

Matt 10:23 "Whenever yet they may be pursuing/persecuting/diwkwsin <1377> (5725) ye in the city, this, be fleeing into the other.
For Amen I am saying to ye, not no ye should be finishing the cities of the Israel till ever may be comingthe Son of the Man".

Reve 12:13 And when perceived, the Dragon that it was cast into the land, it chases/pursues/ediwxen <1377> (5656) the woman who-any brought forth the male.
17 And is wroth, the Dragon, upon the woman, and came-away to do battle with the remnant of her seed, of the ones keeping the commandments of the GOD and having the Witness of Jesus.

BUMP

MamaZ said:

I would question whether or not you believe that the Holy Spirit is still the teacher. For scripture still is in authority over the church and it is not the church that is in authority over the scripture. For what is written is inspired of God and not man. Therefore it is also the Holy Spirit that is the teacher and not man. Therefore the ECF are not the provider of the Holy Spirit but God is and the ECF are not the provider of scripture God is.. So now the concern is who will we listen to. Man or God.

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Yes, I still believe the Holy Spirit is the teacher, but this is besides the point. The Holy Spirit is the teacher, but he use the Church. May I ask why is your [and your church] interpretation of Scriptures the correct one? The slogan that goes "I am lead by the Spirit to the truth and thus I do not need men" does not cut it since over 30,000 different Protestant Churches are saying that, and all of them can't be right! You can speak to a Pentecostal or a Baptize or a "non-denominational" and they will all say there have the truth because the Holy Spirit is inside them. Hum...Is God the author of confusion? The fact is the God-bearing Fathers were part of the Early Church, and what they have to say are more important than what "Billy Graham" have to say 2,000 years later. These Church Fathers told us, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which books belong in the OT and NT [76 books] . It was the Church that had the ultimate authority in this matter, thanks to God guiding His Holy Church. There is no reference to a belief in a particular canon of Scripture, or in the Scriptures themselves, but in the Church. Why will God guide them to the correct canon, and not guide them to the correct interpretations? Are you and your 21st Century Pastor the correct interpreter of Scriptures? If the Holy Spirit is the one who teach the Church the truth [and it is He who provide us with the correct interpretation of Scriptures], where is he is now? Is he in the Baptize church? The Pentecostal Church? A "non-denominational" [oxymoron] Church? The Mormons? The Seventh Day Adventist? The List can go on..... The Eastern Orthodox Church has taught the same doctrines preached by Christ, the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, the God-bearing Fathers, and the Seven Ecumenical Councils, neither subtracting from the faith nor adding to it. She has Apostolic Succession. The point I am trying to make is that in the Early Days the Church was under One Faith, One Spirit, One Baptism, and visible. From the Early 2nd Century [most likely before] she calls herself "The Catholic Church", later the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". I am part of this Church started by Christ. She defended agaisnt heretics. Every time one open the Holy Bible, one follow a canon [at least in the NT for Protestants] put together by the Church, so how can one claim the Holy Bible is the ultimate authority? It was not the ultimate authority back then. I say that if the Church was the ultimate authority back then in determining which books belong "where", under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then she is the ultimate authority in telling us the correct interpretation and which doctrines is "true or false" based upon on Holy Tradition.

I am truly sad that it in 1054AD, the West and East Separated from each other, but either the West [The Roman Catholic Church] or the East [The Eastern Orthodox Church] today has the truth. There are only 2 options today because Protestantism is only 500 years old

The Fact is that only the Church [The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church confess in the Nicene Creed] [2 Timothy 3:15] have the ultimate truth. Sacred Scriptures [a product of the Church] is part of Holy Tradition. The ultimate Authority is the Church, not the Holy Bible. If Scriptures are correct then there is a Church today who teach the fullness of the Truth and have Apostolic Succession [hint: The Eastern Orthodox Church]. The doctrine of "Sola-Scriptural" was invented by Martin Luther 500 years ago and was never part of the faith of the Early Church. If a doctrine or interpretation of Scriptures was not part of the witness of the Early Church [1st-8th Century] it is a false doctrine. That is why Protestantism [also "non-denominational"] are so corrupt. They follow doctrines and interpretation unheard of in the Early Church, even those who were disciples of the Holy Apostles. The reason why we have 30,000 different Protestant Churches is because of this man-made doctrine. The Bible Nowhere say "The Bible is ultimate authority". Christ started a Church to guide and teach people, he did not say "Here, follow this book only, the Church is not the ultimate authority. Remember, Children, you have the Holy Spirit inside you, you do not need men or the Church." One can say "The Holy Bible is the ultimate authority" but what defines the truth is there own interpretation of Scriptures not the Holy Scriptures themselves.

We need the guidance of those who were part of the Early Church. The Church defended Herself against heretical teachings by appealing to two key things: the apostolic origins of Holy Tradition, as proved by Apostolic Succession, and by appealing to the universality of the Orthodox Faith [even Renowned Protestant Historian admit this in his book "Early Christian Doctrines" pg 35; 37 etc]. Remember, before any NT writings were ever written, there was the Holy Church! Yes, after reading Scriptures and the God-Bearing Fathers, it is the Holy Spirit who guided His Church agaisnt the many early heretics, and the Holy Spirit still do. I listen to God and what he spoke through His Church, not merely on Sacred Scriptures alone. I am not saying Holy Scriptures have "limited authority" but it is Holy Traditions [which included written and unwritten: 2 Thes 2:15] that defines the truth. The Holy Spirit was sent down on the Apostles on Pentecost, and they were given the charisma to serve and lead the Church. This charisma they passed on to their successors, the Bishops, who in turn passed it on to their own successors, even to this present day [2 Tim 2:2). The Apostles and the Bibles lead the Church decades before any NT Scriptures written down, and more decades before the Church could agree on what belong in "The Holy Bible".

Sorry for the long post

Blessings,
Ramon
P.S:

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Saint Irenaeus Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 180]).

To put it clearer:

I trust the Scriptures because I trust the Church [the Bishops, the Patriarchs, etc].
I trust the Church, because I trust the Holy Spirit.

I do not rely merely on my own interpretation [Like the Ethiopian told St Phillip, how can I understand what I read in the Scriptures unless someone explains them to me?], but the Holy Spirit-filled Tradition of the Living Church from the past 2,000 years. Simple, right?

To put it clearer:

I trust the Scriptures because I trust the Church [the Bishops, the Patriarchs, etc].
I trust the Church, because I trust the Holy Spirit.

I do not rely merely on my own interpretation [Like the Ethiopian told St Phillip, how can I understand what I read in the Scriptures unless someone explains them to me?], but the Holy Spirit-filled Tradition of the Living Church from the past 2,000 years. Simple, right?

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Hi. Well that is the difference between you, the Catholics and me, I do not put any trust in their interpretations.

But then I view the book of Revelation differently than ya'll and the RCs do also

I am still SOLO SCRIPTURA FOREVER.

1 John 2:22 Who-any is the Falsifier except the one denying/arnou-menoV <720> (5740) that Jesus not is the Christ, this-one is the anti-christ/anti-cristoV <500>, the one denying the Father and the Son.

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/arnion <721> standing, as having been slaughtered

LittleLambofJesus said:

Hi. Well that is the difference between you, the Catholics and me, I do not put any trust in their interpretations.

But then I view the book of Revelation differently than ya'll and the RCs do also

I am still SOLO SCRIPTURA FOREVER.

1 John 2:22 Who-any is the Falsifier except the one denying/arnou-menoV <720> (5740) that Jesus not is the Christ, this-one is the anti-christ/anti-cristoV <500>, the one denying the Father and the Son.

Reve 5:6 And I saw and behold! in midst of the throne and of the four living-ones and in midst of the elders a lamb-kin/arnion <721> standing, as having been slaughtered

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Yes, you believe a doctrine not taught by Scriptures and was never taught by anyone in the Early Church [1st-8th Centuries]. It was invented by Martin Luther in the 1500s. Yes, this is the difference between me [Orthodox] and you [Protestant]. I chose to follow Scriptures [2 Thes 2:15] and what the Early Christians believe and taught instead of listening to what Martin Luther said in the 1500s or what some Pop-Evangelicals said 2,000 years later

Blessings,
Ramon

Ramon96 said:

Yes, you believe a doctrine not taught by Scriptures and was never taught by anyone in the Early Church [1st-8th Centuries]. It was invented by Martin Luther in the 1500s. Yes, this is the difference between me [Orthodox] and you [Protestant]. I chose to follow Scriptures [2 Thes 2:15] and what the Early Christians believe and taught instead of listening to what Martin Luther said in the 1500s or what some Pop-Evangelicals said 2,000 years later

Blessings,
Ramon

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So that is your Denomination's problem, not mine

Btw, can ya help me out on this thread please? Thanks

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263327
Early ECFs and Queen/Babylon in Revelation

Ramon96 said:

Yes, you believe a doctrine not taught by Scriptures and was never taught by anyone in the Early Church [1st-8th Centuries].

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Prove that anyone was a Christian.

Does Truth exist? For many, this question is problematic since they no longer speak of Truth as an absolute, categorical imperative, but rather only of pluralistic and secular truths. The idea of a singular Truth in moral questions, therefore, has been replaced with a more compromising and 'tolerant' idea of truth to such an extent that the essential meaning of the concept has been saturated to the point of multiplicity and absurdity.
The sharp contrast between the two opposing views of this 'truth' is evident here when the question of religion is considered. It is quite apparent to any honest individual, for instance, that people with religious faith should believe in an absolute Truth, whereas people without faith usually assign a subjective meaning to truth, thereby denying the very nature of truth itself - its universality. This affirmation is no where better proven then during the Passion of Christ before Pilate. Jesus said, "'I came into the world for this: to bear witness to the truth; and all who listen to truth listen to my voice'. 'Truth', said Pilate, 'What is that?'" (John 18:37-38).

"The essential bond between Truth, the Good, and Freedom has been largely lost sight of by present-day culture. As a result, helping man to rediscover it represents nowadays one of the specific requirements of the Catholic Church's mission, for the salvation of the world. Pilate's question: 'What is truth?' reflects the perplexity of a man who often no longer knows who he is, whence he comes, and where he is going .The saving power of the truth is contested, and freedom alone, uprooted from any objectivity, is left to decide by itself what is the Apostolic legacy.
The sad state of moral affairs in modern society is, for the most part, a direct consequence of the implicit denial of the concept of an absolute Truth. Furthermore, it is apparent to all that the current age is generally very hostile to religious, absolute moral truth, and conversely, that it is very embrasive of the humanistic ethic which favours moral relativism. In fact, this 'relativist conviction' has been able to successfully separate religion and science from one another to such a degree that it is now widely accepted that these two disciplines are mutually exclusive.

As a result, helping man to rediscover it represents nowadays one of the specific requirements of the Catholic Church's mission, for the salvation of the world.

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Well, your Denomination has your mission and other CHRIST-ian Denominations has theirs.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=47918722&posted=1#post47918722

Exodus 15:1 Then Mosheh is singing and sons of Yisra'el the song, this to YHWH, and they are saying to say of: "I shall sing to YHWH that to be triumphant He is triumphant, horse and his rider he heaved in Sea. [Revelation 15:3]

Revelation 15:3 and They are singing the Song of-Moses, the bond-servant of the God, and the song of the Lamb-kin, saying,