Who really cares what the ECF's had to say?

Ramon96 said:

Yes, another universal recognize and undoubted tradition was that Saint Peter was martyr in Rome, where he started the Church of Rome [Saint Paul being Co-Founder].

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If this actually occurred, how is it that God did not get it recorded in Scripture?

calluna said:

If this actually occurred, how is it that God did not get it recorded in Scripture?

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I would say it was only orally transmitted to the most Elect of the Elect, the Catholics.

MamaZ said:

I would question whether or not you believe that the Holy Spirit is still the teacher. For scripture still is in authority over the church and it is not the church that is in authority over the scripture. For what is written is inspired of God and not man. Therefore it is also the Holy Spirit that is the teacher and not man. Therefore the ECF are not the provider of the Holy Spirit but God is and the ECF are not the provider of scripture God is.. So now the concern is who will we listen to. Man or God.

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Scripture came out of the Church. You are being the authority over scripture.
Jehovah’s Witnesses, Mormons, and a host of other so-called Christian groups believe that they are being led by the Holy Spirit, Jesus is the only way to heaven and that the Bible is inerrant. “How can we be certain the Holy Spirit is guiding us?” While I agree that the Holy Spirit is key to living and understanding the Christian faith rightly, it seems fairly difficult to distinguish between what is truly the leading of the Holy Spirit, and what is our emotions or preconceived ideas taking over. To be certain there were very devout and prayerful people in nearly every Christian faith, who sincerely believed that they were being led by the Holy Spirit, and yet, they came up with very different conclusions about what the Bible says. I have met many people who I have disagreed with on some issue concerning the Bible, and they adamantly claim, “I know this is true, because the Holy Spirit is leading me”. How can I be certain that they are actually being led, or not being led, by the Holy Spirit?


Looking at the landscape of denomination, and seeing how they were all claiming the “truth” of scripture, I knew, with out really knowing, that there must be only one Church who alone possessed the fullness of Truth.

The Seventh Day Adventest could care less of the Southern Baptist while the Church of Christ has no connection with the Assymblies of God. These groups have a hard time speaking in one voice for themselves let alone each other.

Martin Luther said it well after he witnessed the Body of Christ split into hundreds of pieces.

“There are almost as many sects and beliefs as there are heads; this one will not admit Baptism; that one rejects the Sacrament of the altar; another places another world between the present one and the day of judgment; some teach that Jesus Christ is not God. There is not an individual, however clownish he may be, who does not claim to be inspired by the Holy Ghost, and who does not put forth as prophecies his ravings and dreams.”





If the Holy Spirit was not guiding the early Church we can simply add or subtract from what is currently included in the Bible, based upon the most modern scholarship

Just before his ascension, Jesus gave his disciples this commission:
Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age." Matt. 28:18-20.


the Holy Spirit must have been guiding this tradition, at least in part, otherwise there is no reason why we should trust the early Church, and we can simply add or subtract from what is currently included in the Bible, based upon the most modern scholarship


Scripture says the ultimate authority is the Church on earth Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. The Church was purchased with His blood- Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. Jesus made the Church the head over all things.---Eph 1:22 And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church, 1 Timothy, chapter 3

the Church pillar and bulwark of the truth.

calluna said:

If this actually occurred, how is it that God did not get it recorded in Scripture?

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Why isn't World War I and II recorded in Scriptures as a prophecy? Why isn't all the Historical and Archaeological discoveries recorded in Scriptures? Get my picture? But then again, read 1 Peter 5:13 [Saint Peter was in Rome when he wrote 1 Peter]. Not everything is recorded in Scriptures, even Saint John said this at the end of His Gospel [in regards to Jesus' ministry, etc). Not everything HAVE to be in Scriptures in order for it to be true. The fact is that the Apostle Paul told the Early Christians to follow the Traditions he gave them, either by mouth or by letters. Thus, this is a Tradition (Apostolic Tradition: 1 Cor. 11:2, 2 These 2:15) transmitted through the generation, preserved by the God-bearing Fathers. The fact is that both Ancient Historians and modern Historians and archaeological discoveries (such as the archaeological researches of the Protestant historian Hans Lietzmann, supplemented by the library study of the Protestant exegeses Oscar Cullmann) have made it extremely difficult to deny the tradition of Saint Peter's death in Rome under the emperor Nero, where he started the Church of Rome. To those who deny this fact, they are letting prejudice override reason.

Blessings,
Ramon

have made it extremely difficult to deny the tradition of Saint Peter's death in Rome under the emperor Nero, where he started the Church of Rome. To those who deny this fact, they are letting prejudice override reason.

Blessings,
Ramon

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Glad to see you calling it "tradition"

Btw, can ya'll come vote on my poll here? Thanks.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263017
How old is the Earth

MamaZ said:

I would question whether or not you believe that the Holy Spirit is still the teacher. For scripture still is in authority over the church and it is not the church that is in authority over the scripture. For what is written is inspired of God and not man. Therefore it is also the Holy Spirit that is the teacher and not man. Therefore the ECF are not the provider of the Holy Spirit but God is and the ECF are not the provider of scripture God is.. So now the concern is who will we listen to. Man or God.

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Yes, I still believe the Holy Spirit is the teacher, but this is besides the point. The Holy Spirit is the teacher, but he use the Church. May I ask why is your [and your church] interpretation of Scriptures the correct one? The slogan that goes "I am lead by the Spirit to the truth and thus I do not need men" does not cut it since over 30,000 different Protestant Churches are saying that, and all of them can't be right! You can speak to a Pentecostal or a Baptize or a "non-denominational" and they will all say there have the truth because the Holy Spirit is inside them. Hum...Is God the author of confusion? The fact is the God-bearing Fathers were part of the Early Church, and what they have to say are more important than what "Billy Graham" have to say 2,000 years later. These Church Fathers told us, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, which books belong in the OT and NT [76 books] . It was the Church that had the ultimate authority in this matter, thanks to God guiding His Holy Church. There is no reference to a belief in a particular canon of Scripture, or in the Scriptures themselves, but in the Church. Why will God guide them to the correct canon, and not guide them to the correct interpretations? Are you and your 21st Century Pastor the correct interpreter of Scriptures? If the Holy Spirit is the one who teach the Church the truth [and it is He who provide us with the correct interpretation of Scriptures], where is he is now? Is he in the Baptize church? The Pentecostal Church? A "non-denominational" [oxymoron] Church? The Mormons? The Seventh Day Adventist? The List can go on..... The Eastern Orthodox Church has taught the same doctrines preached by Christ, the Holy Apostles, there Holy Successors, the God-bearing Fathers, and the Seven Ecumenical Councils, neither subtracting from the faith nor adding to it. She has Apostolic Succession. The point I am trying to make is that in the Early Days the Church was under One Faith, One Spirit, One Baptism, and visible. From the Early 2nd Century [most likely before] she calls herself "The Catholic Church", later the "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church". I am part of this Church started by Christ. She defended agaisnt heretics. Every time one open the Holy Bible, one follow a canon [at least in the NT for Protestants] put together by the Church, so how can one claim the Holy Bible is the ultimate authority? It was not the ultimate authority back then. I say that if the Church was the ultimate authority back then in determining which books belong "where", under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, then she is the ultimate authority in telling us the correct interpretation and which doctrines is "true or false" based upon on Holy Tradition.

I am truly sad that it in 1054AD, the West and East Separated from each other, but either the West [The Roman Catholic Church] or the East [The Eastern Orthodox Church] today has the truth. There are only 2 options today because Protestantism is only 500 years old

The Fact is that only the Church [The One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church confess in the Nicene Creed] [2 Timothy 3:15] have the ultimate truth. Sacred Scriptures [a product of the Church] is part of Holy Tradition. The ultimate Authority is the Church, not the Holy Bible. If Scriptures are correct then there is a Church today who teach the fullness of the Truth and have Apostolic Succession [hint: The Eastern Orthodox Church]. The doctrine of "Sola-Scriptural" was invented by Martin Luther 500 years ago and was never part of the faith of the Early Church. If a doctrine or interpretation of Scriptures was not part of the witness of the Early Church [1st-8th Century] it is a false doctrine. That is why Protestantism [also "non-denominational"] are so corrupt. They follow doctrines and interpretation unheard of in the Early Church, even those who were disciples of the Holy Apostles. The reason why we have 30,000 different Protestant Churches is because of this man-made doctrine. One can say "The Holy Bible is the ultimate authority" but what defines the truth is there own interpretation of Scriptures not the Holy Scriptures themselves.

We need the guidance of those who were part of the Early Church. The Church defended Herself against heretical teachings by appealing to two key things: the apostolic origins of Holy Tradition, as proved by Apostolic Succession, and by appealing to the universality of the Orthodox Faith [even Renowned Protestant Historian admit this in his book "Early Christian Doctrines" pg 35; 37 etc]. Remember, before any NT writings were ever written, there was the Holy Church! Yes, after reading Scriptures and the God-Bearing Fathers, it is the Holy Spirit who guided His Church agaisnt the many early heretics, and the Holy Spirit still do. I listen to God and what he spoke through His Church, not merely on Sacred Scriptures alone. I am not saying Holy Scriptures have "limited authority" but it is Holy Traditions [which included written and unwritten: 2 Thes 2:15] that defines the truth. The Holy Spirit was sent down on the Apostles on Pentecost, and they were given the charisma to serve and lead the Church. This charisma they passed on to their successors, the Bishops, who in turn passed it on to their own successors, even to this present day [2 Tim 2:2). The Apostles and the Bibles lead the Church decades before any NT Scriptures written down, and more decades before the Church could agree on what belong in "The Holy Bible".

Sorry for the long post

Blessings,
Ramon
P.S:

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known to us throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors down to our own times, men who neither knew nor taught anything like what these heretics rave about" (Saint Irenaeus Against Heresies 3:3:1 [A.D. 180]).

To put it clearer:

I trust the Scriptures because I trust the Church [the Bishops, the Patriarchs, etc].
I trust the Church, because I trust the Holy Spirit.

I do not rely merely on my own interpretation [Like the Ethiopian told St Phillip, how can I understand what I read in the Scriptures unless someone explains them to me?], but the Holy Spirit-filled Tradition of the Living Church from the past 2,000 years. Simple, right?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Glad to see you calling it "tradition"

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Apostolic Tradition, not traditions of men

Ramon96 said:

Apostolic Tradition,, not traditions of men

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Well, you already know my views on that

John 5:45 `No be ye supposing that I shall be accusing of-ye toward the Father; is the one accusing of-ye, Moses into whom ye have hoped; [Reve 12:10]

Reve 12:10 And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven: "Now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the accusing them in sight of the God of us, of day and of night.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Well, you already know my views on that

John 5:45 `No be ye supposing that I shall be accusing of-ye toward the Father; is the one accusing of-ye, Moses into whom ye have hoped; [Reve 12:10]

Reve 12:10 And I hear great voice saying in the Heaven: "Now became the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of the God of us, and the authority of the Christ of Him, that was cast the Accuser of the brothers of us, the accusing them in sight of the God of us, of day and of night.

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Well I am not sure what those Scriptures have to do with I said, but O.k

LittleLambofJesus said:

Btw, can ya'll come vote on my poll here? Thanks.

http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7263017
How old is the Earth

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Sure will.

simonthezealot said:

He whom dwells in me, IS!
Are they?

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IT's circular reasoning then.

The internalisation of Christianity...

To say "The Holy Spirit guides me" leads to the situation where all viewpoints are equally valid because each person believes that the holy spirit is guiding them.

That's why instead of having (as Paul called us, for unity of faith) 100,000's of different Christian churches all claiming to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

You've got some handling snakes, some speaking in tongues, some believe in gay priests, some in ordination of women, some believe in the Eucharist, whilst others just have a rememberence meal.

Jesus put in place the solution to this. He chose 12. Yet many followed him.

The Bible, further, didn't just authorise itself. Someone, or more precisely a group of people, collected books together to form the Bible

The Holy Spirit dwells in each and every born again Christian therefore teaching each and every born again Christian because born again Christians have the annointing with in them and have no need for men to teach them. The bible tells us we are to call no man Father for we have one Father and He is in Heaven with our Lord Jesus Christ seated at His right hand side. So no matter what these men have said or believed the truth of scripture trumps what it is they had to say. For we look unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith and not unto man.

MamaZ said:

The Holy Spirit dwells in each and every born again Christian therefore teaching each and every born again Christian because born again Christians have the annointing with in them and have no need for men to teach them. The bible tells us we are to call no man Father for we have one Father and He is in Heaven with our Lord Jesus Christ seated at His right hand side. So no matter what these men have said or believed the truth of scripture trumps what it is they had to say. For we look unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith and not unto man.

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Yet the Bible also says not everyone who cries "Lord! Lord!" will be saved.
Matthew 7:21

Your post in no way, by the way, addressed what I said about the evidence we see in 100,000s of different Chrisitan churches - quite different from the unity of faith Paul called for us to share.

It doesn't address the fact that the Bible doesn't authorise itself... It didn't fall out of heaven fully written. Why then did the Holy Spirit work with the church AT THE VERY TIME Protestants think it was already apostate, in putting the Bible together?

Can someone cite for me Biblical verses saying "Only rely on the Bible"?

Montalban said:

Yet the Bible also says not everyone who cries "Lord! Lord!" will be saved.
Matthew 7:21
Yes He does say this and then He goes on to say why. I never knew you.
Your post in no way, by the way, addressed what I said about the evidence we see in 100,000s of different Chrisitan churches - quite different from the unity of faith Paul called for us to share.
The unity that we are to share is the unity of the Holy Spirit and not uniformity. Many Christian assemblies out there that preach Christ and Him crucified to the saving of the soul. Many assemblies out there that call themselves christian but have not the evidence of this. Only religious rituals and not the living God.
It doesn't address the fact that the Bible doesn't authorise itself... It didn't fall out of heaven fully written. Why then did the Holy Spirit work with the church AT THE VERY TIME Protestants think it was already apostate, in putting the Bible together?

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It didn't have to fall out of heaven already written. For God is the author of the bible and He has never fallen out of Heaven and never once has He fell off His throne. If God can use a donkey to get His word out He will for God is in control of all things.

Montalban said:

It doesn't address the fact that the Bible doesn't authorise itself.

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It does. Everyone who reads it feels conviction of the Holy Spirit immediately. It does not and did not take 400 years to work out what is from God and what is not.

MamaZ said:

It didn't have to fall out of heaven already written. For God is the author of the bible and He has never fallen out of Heaven and never once has He fell off His throne. If God can use a donkey to get His word out He will for God is in control of all things.

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God didn't write the Bible. He inspired it's writtings.

Why would God sully himself with a donkey? Sounds very much like the 'golden calf'.

Get yourself a bit educated on the history of the Bible.

Take for instance this site which shows a large number of books that existed PRIOR to the compilation of the Bible.

The church sifted through these, based on Holy Tradition and decided what would, and what would not go into the Bible.

And some of the books they didn't include they didn't 'reject' outright - so for instance we can still be inspired by the Didache.

calluna said:

It does. Everyone who reads it feels conviction of the Holy Spirit immediately.

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ROFL. Yes, non-Chrisitans ther world over read it and feel the Holy Spirit.

What you're doing is making an idol of a book.

calluna said:

It does not and did not take 400 years to work out what is from God and what is not.

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Refer to site above. And note, someone, or group of people DID decide.

Check out this site too. Different 'canons' of books existed at different times

BUMP

Montalban said:

Can someone cite for me Biblical verses saying "Only rely on the Bible"?

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Montalban said:

ROFL. Yes, non-Chrisitans ther world over read it and feel the Holy Spirit.

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That's so very true. Pretending otherwise does not help one's case at all. There is demand for the Bible in hundreds of languages, from those who love its challenge, and also from cowards who hate it, and want to soften that challenge.

What you're doing is making an idol of a book.

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Whatever makes men honest and decent, doing what is just and merciful sure needs idolising in this world.

Some prefer to keep their activities secret, though.

someone, or group of people DID decide.

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Of course. Everyone makes their own choice. Nobody takes any notice of the choices of those long dead. They choose what suits their lifestyle.

Different 'canons' of books existed at different times

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As is only to be expected. Not everyone is honest and decent, doing what is just and merciful.

calluna said:

That's so very true. Pretending otherwise does not help one's case at all.

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If anyone is pretending its the person who believes that God wrote the Bible and that everyone is inspired by reading it

calluna said:

There is demand for the Bible in hundreds of languages, from those who love its challenge, and also from cowards who hate it, and want to soften that challenge.

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That doesn't mean that everyone who reads it is inspired.

calluna said:

Whatever makes men honest and decent, doing what is just and merciful sure needs idolising in this world.

Some prefer to keep their activities secret, though.

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And some post stuff that has nothing to do with the subject.

calluna said:

Of course. Everyone makes their own choice. Nobody takes any notice of the choices of those long dead. They choose what suits their lifestyle.

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That's exactly what Protestantism does.

calluna said:

As is only to be expected. Not everyone is honest and decent, doing what is just and merciful.

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So what's inspired is inspired? What was chosen, that you accept, was what was chosen by honest decent people?