JacktheCatholic
Praise be to Jesus Christ. Now and forever.
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I deny the perpetual virginity and the "real presence"....holy thunder... I am a HERETIC!!! FLEE from the Judgement LLOJ!!
Sure, why not?
Everyone should be concerned about their salvation in my humble opinion.
While this is quite true, I fail to see that not believing in the perpetual virginity of the BVM and not believing in the "real presence" excludes one from salvation.
One Father of Christianity said that you cannot have God for the Father with out the Church for the Mother. Cyprian of Carthage.
Without the Catholic Church you cannot have God as your Father.
LLOJ said:I deny the perpetual virginity and the "real presence"....holy thunder... I am a HERETIC!!! FLEE from the Judgement LLOJ!!
Some of Polycarp's stuff;
Chapter 4. Various exhortations
But the love of money is the root of all evils. 1 Timothy 6:10 Knowing, therefore, that as we brought nothing into the world, so we can carry nothing out, 1 Timothy 6:7 let us arm ourselves with the armour of righteousness; Ephesians 6:11 and let us teach, first of all, ourselves to walk in the commandments of the Lord. Next, [teach] your wives [to walk] in the faith given to them, and in love and purity tenderly loving their own husbands in all truth, and loving all [others] equally in all chastity; and to train up their children in the knowledge and fear of God. Teach the widows to be discreet as respects the faith of the Lord, praying continually 1 Thessalonians 5:17 for all, being far from all slandering, evil-speaking, false-witnessing, love of money, and every kind of evil; knowing that they are the altar of God, that He clearly perceives all things, and that nothing is hid from Him, neither reasonings, nor reflections, nor any one of the secret things of the heart.
Chapter 5. The duties of deacons, youths, and virgins
Knowing, then, that God is not mocked, Galatians 6:7 we ought to walk worthy of His commandment and glory. In like manner should the deacons be blameless before the face of His righteousness, as being the servants of God and Christ, and not of men. They must not be slanderers, double-tongued, 1 Timothy 3:8 or lovers of money, but temperate in all things, compassionate, industrious, walking according to the truth of the Lord, who was the servant Matthew 20:28 of all. If we please Him in this present world, we shall receive also the future world, according as He has promised to us that He will raise us again from the dead, and that if we live worthily of Him, we shall also reign together with Him, 2 Timothy 2:12 provided only we believe. In like manner, let the young men also be blameless in all things, being especially careful to preserve purity, and keeping themselves in, as with a bridle, from every kind of evil. For it is well that they should be cut off from the lusts that are in the world, since every lust wars against the spirit; 1 Peter 2:11 and neither fornicators, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, shall inherit the kingdom of God, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 nor those who do things inconsistent and unbecoming. Wherefore, it is needful to abstain from all these things, being subject to the presbyters and deacons, as unto God and Christ. The virgins also must walk in a blameless and pure conscience.
Chapter 6. The duties of presbyters and others
And let the presbyters be compassionate and merciful to all, bringing back those that wander, visiting all the sick, and not neglecting the widow, the orphan, or the poor, but always providing for that which is becoming in the sight of God and man; Romans 12:17; 2 Corinthians 8:31 abstaining from all wrath, respect of persons, and unjust judgment; keeping far off from all covetousness, not quickly crediting [an evil report] against any one, not severe in judgment, as knowing that we are all under a debt of sin. If then we entreat the Lord to forgive us, we ought also ourselves to forgive; Matthew 6:12-14 for we are before the eyes of our Lord and God, and we must all appear at the judgment-seat of Christ, and must every one give an account of himself. Romans 14:10-12; 2 Corinthians 5:10 Let us then serve Him in fear, and with all reverence, even as He Himself has commanded us, and as the apostles who preached the Gospel unto us, and the prophets who proclaimed beforehand the coming of the Lord [have alike taught us]. Let us be zealous in the pursuit of that which is good, keeping ourselves from causes of offence, from false brethren, and from those who in hypocrisy bear the name of the Lord, and draw away vain men into error.
AND how about Ignatius?
Polycarp also wrote;
Both you and Ignatius wrote to me, that if any one went [from this] into Syria, he should carry your letter with him; which request I will attend to if I find a fitting opportunity, either personally, or through some other acting for me, that your desire may be fulfilled. The Epistles of Ignatius written by him to us, and all the rest [of his Epistles] which we have by us, we have sent to you, as you requested. They are subjoined to this Epistle, and by them you may be greatly profited; for they treat of faith and patience, and all things that tend to edification in our Lord. Any more certain information you may have obtained respecting both Ignatius himself, and those that were with him, have the goodness to make known to us.
I still fail to see your problem with him..
For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.) I wouldn't go so far as to say it excludes one from salvation.
What about when Jesus says that if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood that you do NOT have Life in you?
Just curious.
Given the relatively recent interpretation of the Eucharist using an Aristotelian metephysic it now becomes even more difficult to take a hyper-literal interpretation of John 6:51 and, thus, the exclusive claim by the RCC to being the only entity in which this is available is eroded.
However, my previous question, which I am now raising for the third time remains unanswered. If a Protestant who is baptized using a trinitarian formula but does not believe in the perpetual virginity of the BVM or the"real presence" will he be saved or lost?
That is because I do not have a problem with him.
You do not see is all. Maybe now you can.
What about when Jesus says that if you do not eat his flesh and drink his blood that you do NOT have Life in you?
Just curious.
That depends on your own denomination's definition of "Church" I can just as easily say you can't cannot have God being in the Catholic Denomination. How's that grab yaOne Father of Christianity said that you cannot have God for the Father with out the Church for the Mother. Cyprian of Carthage.
Without the Catholic Church you cannot have God as your Father.
Surely you jestOne Father of Christianity said that you cannot have God for the Father with out the Church for the Mother. Cyprian of Carthage.
Without the Catholic Church you cannot have God as your Father.
Actually read more into the History of the CC.. The CC was not even heard of until Constatine declared Rome to be Christian.. But then when he did this he would not give up his idols and mingled them. Thus the RCC was born.. There is not much evidence that those that the CC declare are the ecf even had contact with the Apostles..Why were those taught by the Apostles Catholic? They are Catholic because the Apostles started the Catholic Church.
Ignatius called the Church "Catholic" two centuries before Constantine was born. Early in the second century, shortly after the death of the Apostle John, the ministry of bishops, presbyters and deacons had been set firmly in place. The eucharist (i.e. the great thanksgiving) was being offered (i.e. as a sacrifice) by the bishops of the Church. This sounds awfully catholic to me.Actually read more into the History of the CC.. The CC was not even heard of until Constatine declared Rome to be Christian.. But then when he did this he would not give up his idols and mingled them. Thus the RCC was born.. There is not much evidence that those that the CC declare are the ecf even had contact with the Apostles..
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