Who is your favorite OT bible Prophet?

[DaRev]

he did?...I didn't know...


and he was such a good friend of mine...

Beat ya to it...

 

[The Princess Bride]

It's not authority as in control, but rather in the sense of duty and responsibility. Pastors are given specific functions in the Church and they need to be the ones to carry them out as God has called them to do.

If it is about "duty and responsibility" why then is there an exclusion for women to serve in this capacity? If the goal is to minister and teach God's people, I would think gender not to be an issue here.

 

[Tofferer]

If it is about "duty and responsibility" why then is there an exclusion for women to serve in this capacity? If the goal is to minister and teach God's people, I would think gender not to be an issue here.

This "exclusion" as you put it is in the Bible. It was written by the apostle Paul. DaRev and Filo could explain it better than I can. Gender really is an issue when it comes to this. Indeed, how can a woman be a "husband"? For it is written that a priest should be "the husband of one wife". Of course that is just scratching the surface. Hopefully DaRev or Filo will grace us with a more complete answer.

 

[The Princess Bride]

This "exclusion" as you put it is in the Bible. It was written by the apostle Paul. DaRev and Filo could explain it better than I can. Gender really is an issue when it comes to this. Indeed, how can a woman be a "husband"? For it is written that a priest should be "the husband of one wife". Of course that is just scratching the surface. Hopefully DaRev or Filo will grace us with a more complete answer.

But a woman without a husband would seemingly not be held to those exclusions, for she is not a "wife".

 

[Jim47]

But a woman without a husband would seemingly not be held to those exclusions, for she is not a "wife".

Unless I'm missing something here, neither can a woman be a "husband" except in a gay marriage, right? or is that not your question?

 

[The Princess Bride]

ummm...not really Jimbo!

The often explanation that "why" women cannot be pastors is IF they are married they should not be in authority OVER their husband, but I've yet to see it answered as to "why" a SINGLE woman could not act in the capacity of pastor, if the goal of a pastor aside from gender, is "duty and responsibility" to the Body.

 

[Tofferer]

The Apostle Paul writes as follows:

1 Timothy 2:12

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

I think if you read on from there, you will see his point. However, from this text, it is abundantly clear why a woman should not be a pastor.

I do hope that somebody with more wisdom than I will help to further answer this question (again).

 

[The Princess Bride]

But that is in respect to the line of authority of A man and A woman, there is no plural usage here in this text. It is clearly a singular authority, the only of which being the marriage covenant could this apply to, so the WIFE is not to be in authority over her HUSBAND.

You cannot just examine one sentance and "boom", you have you're answer to fit your need, you have to look at the whole chapter, sometimes book, to gain insight. The very next verse goes on to speak of the relationship with Adam and Eve, thus concreting the fact the authority role only extends to spouses...

That does not exclude her from the ability to serve in a capacity over which she is in authority over other MEN so long as she is still under the authority of her husband.

 

[DaRev]

If it is about "duty and responsibility" why then is there an exclusion for women to serve in this capacity? If the goal is to minister and teach God's people, I would think gender not to be an issue here.

The "exclusion" has to do with the duty and responsibility of the pastor. A pastor speaks and acts in the stead and by the command of Christ, who is the bridegroom (husband) of His bride, the Church. For a woman, regardless of marital status, to stand in that role and carry out the functions and duties of the pastoral office, places a woman in the role of "husband" since the pastor stands in the stead of the "husband of the Church" when carrying out those prescribed functions. God does not call women to be husbands or fathers, nor does He call them to be pastors since the roles and responsibilities of such are the same.

 

[The Princess Bride]

If Christ is the "Bridegroom" and the Church is His "Bride" why is the masculine gender used to represent a generally feminine gender's role?

I have a VERY, ummm....active mind, we'll say, so..... as long as you have answers for me, I'll keep shooting questions your way!

 

[Tofferer]

You cannot just examine one sentence and "boom", you have you're answer to fit your need, you have to look at the whole chapter, sometimes book, to gain insight. The very next verse goes on to speak of the relationship with Adam and Eve, thus concreting the fact the authority role only extends to spouses...

That does not exclude her from the ability to serve in a capacity over which she is in authority over other MEN so long as she is still under the authority of her husband.

Yes it does. If a woman were to serve as a "pastor" she would be in authority over men and not silent, which is prohibited by scripture. Proper hermaneutical principals were applied. Please read not just the verse, but also the ones before and after it (I would suggest start at verse 8). I am not using only one sentence. Rather, I am well aware of what is written afterwards. The reference to Adam and Eve is still in regards to why a woman may not teach or have authority over a man. Let me repost that verse and the verse before it along with the next two verses after it as found in the RSV:

11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness.
12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.
13 For Adam was formed first then Eve;
14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

I fail to see how this is about the relationship between Adam and Eve. Paul states explicitly that a woman is not to teach or have authority over men. I feel your rationalization is taking scripture out of context. I firmly feel that I have stayed within the proper context of scripture.

However, and more in line with the topic of the thread, Deborah may have been a prophetess, however, she was NOT a priest. Judge? Yes. Priest? No. In fact, many of the the judges were not priests. Sampson certainly wasn't a priest, however, Samuel was. Note also that many of the better known prophets were not priests either. However, the prophets would likely be zealous for the law of God and would hence hold the priests accountable for their actions in accordance with the law of God.


Note:
If I am out of line here, I hereby give the moderators my permission (not that they need it) to remove this post and ban me from CF for a period of 84 hours. However, I hope am not out of line in defending conservative Lutheran practices.

 

[DaRev]

If Christ is the "Bridegroom" and the Church is His "Bride" why is the masculine gender used to represent a generally feminine gender's role?

Could you give a specific example.

I have a VERY, ummm....active mind, we'll say, so..... as long as you have answers for me, I'll keep shooting questions your way!

In the ancient languages, the masculine terms were generic and the feminine were specific. For example, the names of specific places are feminine in form. The name "Philadelphia" is a feminine word.

When speaking specifically of a female or a group of females, feminine forms would be used. When speaking of a male or a group of males, the masculine form is used. When speaking of a group of both males and females, the masculine form is used because of its generic nature.

The Greek word that is most commonly translated "church" in the Bible is "ekklesia" which is a feminine form. And when speaking of the "ekklesia" specifically, feminine forms are associated with it. But when talking about the members of the Church, which is made up of both males and females, masculine word forms are used.

 

[DaRev]

Just a note...

The issue of Deborah as a judge, or even any of the prophetesses in the Scriptures, really doesn't play into the argument concerning the ordination of women at all.

The relationship that exists between Christ and the Church is the same as that between a husband and wife. Scripture sets specific responsibilities for each. The pastoral office is instituted to be the vehicle or mechanism (bad words to use here, I know, but...) through which Christ fulfills His continuing responsibility to His bride, the Church. So, the pastor stands in the stead and by the command of the Bridegroom (husband). Just as wives are to submit to their husbands in the household, the Church submits to it's Bridegroom, Christ.

Deborah as a judge or Huldah or Anna as a prophetess is outside of the relationship of husband and wife, and therefore outside of the relationship of the Bridegroom and His bride.

This is where the LCMS and the WELS differ on this matter. The LCMS maintains that the Scripture supports women in roles outside of the pastoral office (voting members, congregation officers, etc.) since those roles would be considered outside of the relationship of Bridegroom/bride. The WELS holds a more universal view of this doctrine, applying it to every position within the congregation.

I hereby give the moderators my permission (not that they need it) to remove this post and ban me from CF for a period of 84 hours. However, I hope am not out of line in defending conservative Lutheran practices.

Being banned for upholding conservative Lutheran practices?

Well..., it HAS happened before.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Interesting thread.