Who is the testator?

[scottSTANLEY]

(Heb 9:15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(Heb 9:16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(Heb 9:17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Are we in agreement that Christ was the testator, the one who actually gave the law on Sinai?

(Rom 7:1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(Rom 7:2) For the woman (the Church) which hath an husband (Christ) is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead (at Calavary), she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(Rom 7:3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The Christ who gave the law died and was raised again. The husband who gave the law died and we are to be married to the risen savior.
By means of the cross, we see the love of God for the world displayed. Love is the fulfilling of the law. The law does not fulfill love.
God is love (1John 4:8,16) and love does make a record of sin (1Corinthians 13:5).

 

[stuart lawrence]

(Heb 9:15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(Heb 9:16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(Heb 9:17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Are we in agreement that Christ was the testator, the one who actually gave the law on Sinai?

(Rom 7:1) Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
(Rom 7:2) For the woman (the Church) which hath an husband (Christ) is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead (at Calavary), she is loosed from the law of her husband.
(Rom 7:3) So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
(Rom 7:4) Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

The Christ who gave the law died and was raised again. The husband who gave the law died and we are to be married to the risen savior.
By means of the cross, we see the love of God for the world displayed. Love is the fulfilling of the law. The law does not fulfill love.
God is love (1John 4:8,16) and love does make a record of sin (1Corinthians 13:5).

Christ is the end of the law, UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

 

[scottSTANLEY]

amen.

 

[BobRyan]

(Heb 9:15) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
(Heb 9:16) For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
(Heb 9:17) For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Are we in agreement that Christ was the testator, the one who actually gave the law on Sinai?

Yes... Take a look at Hebrews 8:6-10 regarding the NEW Covenant and the LAW at Sinai.

Heb 8
6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He (Christ) is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He (Christ) says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I (Christ) made with their fathers in the day when I (Christ) took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I (Christ) will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

The Christ who gave the law died and was raised again.

True.

And "still" even in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
And "still" even for NT saints it is "sin" to "take God's name in vain"

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

John 14:15 (BEFORE the Cross) "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Exodus 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

 

[BobRyan]

Christ is the end of the law, UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS for everyone who believeth
Rom10:4

The "Goal" of the LAW -- which means "it is still a sin to take God's name in vain" -- and we all know it.

 

[scottSTANLEY]

Yes... Take a look at Hebrews 8:6-10 regarding the NEW Covenant and the LAW at Sinai.

Heb 8
6 But now He (Christ) has obtained a more excellent ministry, inasmuch as He (Christ) is also Mediator of a better covenant, which was established on better promises.

A New Covenant
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He (Christ) says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I (Christ) made with their fathers in the day when I (Christ) took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I (Christ) will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.




True.

And "still" even in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4
And "still" even for NT saints it is "sin" to "take God's name in vain"

1 John 5:2-3
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome.

John 14:15 (BEFORE the Cross) "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"
Exodus 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

You seem to be making

 

[scottSTANLEY]

You seem to be making the same mistake I made for most of my Christian life. I always applied the word "law" to the Mosaic law. Take a look at what Paul wrote in Romans 8:3
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death".
He defines the law of sin and death in 2 Corinthians 3:7, "written and engraven in stone".
It is abundantly clear by means of the body of Christ we are dead to the law.
The real issue here is to understand what actually happened at the cross. Try approaching this from the standpoint that God is love, then let the bible define love (1 Cor. 13:4-7). This will redefine everything you think you know about God and His Son. Takes courage to receive the truth as it is in Jesus.

 

[BobRyan]

You seem to be making the same mistake I made for most of my Christian life. I always applied the word "law" to the Mosaic law.

Mark 7:6-13 and the teaching of Christ comes to mind just then.
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Jesus is not contrasting "do not take God's name in vain" with "Remember the Sabbath" -- rather He is contrasting the "Word of God" the "Commandment of God" which is what He also calls "Moses said" against "the Commandments of men"

Take a look at what Paul wrote in Romans 8:3
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death".

In Romans 7 Paul defines that law of sin and death as "SIN IN ME" in fact ... the sinful nature.


In Romans 8:4-9 Paul says that because of the sinful nature - the wicked "do not submit to the law of God - neither indeed CAN they".

Paul reminds us in Romans 7 that the LAW of God is the one with "thou shalt not covet" in it.
In Eph 6:2 Paul reminds us that this unit of TEN has the 5th Commandment "as the FIRST commandment with a promise" within that very distinctive unit of LAW.

Nothing in Romans 7 or 8 shows paul at war against "Do not take God's name in vain" as if that is "an evil command" or even "the cause of all evil".

He defines the law of sin and death in 2 Corinthians 3:7m, "written and engraven in stone".

2 Cor 3:7 does not say that the Ten Commandments are "the LAW of sin"' or "the LAW of Sin AND death" -- and we both know it.

2 Cor 3:7 does not say that the Law written on stone is "the LAW of sin"' or "the LAW of Sin AND death" -- and we both know it.

Thus it is "Still" a sin to take God's name in vain.

A Bible detail so incredibly obvious that both the Bible Sabbath AND the pro-Sunday scholars agree to this Bible fact.

It is abundantly clear by means of the body of Christ we are dead to the law.
The real issue here is to understand what actually happened at the cross.

Romans 3:19-20 points out the fact that the phrase "under the law" refers to being lost without the Gospel and "under the condemnation of the LAW". It also points out that this same law condemns all mankind - "every mouth" and "all the world" as sinners ... and as you point it - it is written on stone.

THEN in Rom 3:31 this devastating conclusion "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"

Try approaching this from the standpoint that God is love, then let the bible define love (1 Cor. 13:4-7).

1 John 5:2-3 "2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

John 14:15 "If you love me KEEP My Commandments"
Exodus 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

The mere quote of the text will be sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection for those who reject the Bible study principle of "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice.

 

[scottSTANLEY]

People sing songs of those who overcome the beast, the mark, and the image. Maybe someday they will sing it for you. Until you understand the cross you will never understand the law or God's love.

 

[BobRyan]

People sing songs of those who overcome the beast, the mark, and the image. Maybe someday they will sing it for you. .

Your exit from theBible study above... "noted".

Meanwhile - I am one of those who prefers the Protestant option of "sola scriptura"

 

[scottSTANLEY]

Your sola scriptura is scripture as you interpret it. I just can't let this go yet.
I'm wondering if you have ever read the bible from the standpoint that God is love? 1 John 4:8,16 state that God is love. John doesn't say, "God would love you if," or "God did love but", he just states that God is love. We know John 3:16 by heart: God so loved the world. This love was before the cross ever took place.
Now, what would happen if we took this concept and applied it to the love chapter? What if I just put the word God in place of the word love? You can do this with the whole chapter but for now I am only going to apply it to verses 4-7.
1Co 13:4-7
4) Charity (GOD) suffereth long, and is kind; charity (GOD) envieth not; charity (GOD) vaunteth not itself (HIMSELF), is not puffed up,
5) Doth not behave itself (HIMSELF) unseemly, seeketh not her (HIS) own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

In your understanding of God, is this a fair assessment of His character?

 

[BobRyan]

Your sola scriptura is scripture as you interpret it.

Anyone can make such accusations.. the key is to actually choose not to avoid the details that come up in the texts posted. Simply responding with false accusation -- is easy...anyone can do it.

I'm wondering if you have ever read the bible from the standpoint that God is love? 1 John 4:8,16 state that God is love.

Indeed He is. He loves the saints... He even loves the lost that are placed in the lake of fire in Rev 20. God "is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" 2 Peter 3.

And 1 John 5:2-3 tells us what the Love of God is...

Bible details matter.

1Co 13:4-7
4) Charity (GOD) suffereth long, and is kind; charity (GOD) envieth not; charity (GOD) vaunteth not itself (HIMSELF), is not puffed up,
5) Doth not behave itself (HIMSELF) unseemly, seeketh not her (HIS) own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

In your understanding of God, is this a fair assessment of His character?

Indeed - His Word... His Law... including 1 Cor 13 -- a transcript of His character.

"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Exodus 20:6
"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1 John 14:15.

Rebellion against the Word of God is a "certain kind of fruit"

Jesus said "by their fruits you shall know them" Matthew 7.

Jesus knew what He was talking about.

And "Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever" Hebrews 13.


Matthew 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

 

[BobRyan]

Mark 7:6-13 and the teaching of Christ comes to mind just then.

Mark 7
6 And He said to them, “Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
‘This people honors Me with their lips,
But their heart is far away from Me.
7 ‘But in vain do they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.’
8 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.”
9 He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10 For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who speaks evil of father or mother, is to be put to death’; 11 but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

Jesus is not contrasting "do not take God's name in vain" with "Remember the Sabbath" -- rather He is contrasting the "Word of God" the "Commandment of God" which is what He also calls "Moses said" against "the Commandments of men"

In Romans 7 Paul defines that law of sin and death as "SIN IN ME" in fact ... the sinful nature.

In Romans 8:4-9 Paul says that because of the sinful nature - the wicked "do not submit to the law of God - neither indeed CAN they".

Paul reminds us in Romans 7 that the LAW of God is the one with "thou shalt not covet" in it.
In Eph 6:2 Paul reminds us that this unit of TEN has the 5th Commandment "as the FIRST commandment with a promise" within that very distinctive unit of LAW.

Nothing in Romans 7 or 8 shows paul at war against "Do not take God's name in vain" as if that is "an evil command" or even "the cause of all evil".

2 Cor 3:7 does not say that the Ten Commandments are "the LAW of sin"' or "the LAW of Sin AND death" -- and we both know it.

2 Cor 3:7 does not say that the Law written on stone is "the LAW of sin"' or "the LAW of Sin AND death" -- and we both know it.

Thus it is "Still" a sin to take God's name in vain.

A Bible detail so incredibly obvious that both the Bible Sabbath AND the pro-Sunday scholars agree to this Bible fact.


Romans 3:19-20 points out the fact that the phrase "under the law" refers to being lost without the Gospel and "under the condemnation of the LAW". It also points out that this same law condemns all mankind - "every mouth" and "all the world" as sinners ... and as you point it - it is written on stone.

THEN in Rom 3:31 this devastating conclusion "do we then make VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW"


1 John 5:2-3 "2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous."

John 14:15 "If you love me KEEP My Commandments"
Exodus 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

The mere quote of the text will be sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection for those who reject the Bible study principle of "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice.

Your sola scriptura is scripture as you interpret it. I just can't let this go yet.

The statement at the end of my revised quote above -- comes to mind.

"The mere quote of the text will be sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection for those who reject the Bible study principle of "Sola Scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice"

 

[SAAN]

How can the law be written on our hearts in the New Covenant if it were abolished?

 

[scottSTANLEY]

I'm wondering then, if love (or God) does not keep a record of sin, as stated in 1 Corinthians 13:5, what was the purpose of the cross? Love fulfills the law. The law does not fulfill love.

 

[SAAN]

I'm wondering then, if love (or God) does not keep a record of sin, as stated in 1 Corinthians 13:5, what was the purpose of the cross? Love fulfills the law. The law does not fulfill love.

The Law is Love. Jesus summed up all the commandments as Love God and Love one another, so summed up, the commandments are Love.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm wondering then, if love (or God) does not keep a record of sin, as stated in 1 Corinthians 13:5, what was the purpose of the cross? Love fulfills the law. The law does not fulfill love.

2 Cor 5:10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Romans 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Daniel 7
9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened


21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

 

[scottSTANLEY]

Hi,
You never answered the question. If love (GOD) does not keep a record of sin then why did Christ need to die?

 

[scottSTANLEY]

The Law is Love. Jesus summed up all the commandments as Love God and Love one another, so summed up, the commandments are Love.

You're awesome.

 

[BobRyan]

I'm wondering then, if love (or God) does not keep a record of sin, as stated in 1 Corinthians 13:5, what was the purpose of the cross? Love fulfills the law. The law does not fulfill love.

2 Cor 5:10 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Romans 2
4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law
13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Daniel 7
9 “I watched till thrones were put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The court was seated,
And the books were opened


21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Hi,
You never answered the question. If love (GOD) does not keep a record of sin then why did Christ need to die?

I did answer the question - from the actual Bible. Are you asking why the Bible says that God is keeping a record??

(Are we about to have a discussion on the topic of "free will"?? Because if so ... I just love that topic.)