We are DEAD in our sin. Until He quickens His elect we cannot choose anything without that awakening.
"Total depravity". But Paul contradicts that, Gabe. See if you agree with this:
God did not save us before we believed. Do we agree? Paul laments, "none seek after God, all have sinned and fall short, all have turned aside." And yet we have Jeremiah 29:13 which says, "you will seek Me and you will find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart". Which is it, Gabriel? It can't be both---either
no one EVER seeks after God OR it is possible TO seek after God. PE (Predestined-Electioneers) assert that
saving belief results FROM God's forceful interaction. Doesn't this contradict Paul in Romans 10? "Faith comes from
hearing the word of God"---not "from God INSTALLING it".
In regards to our depravity, you are
right---we are depraved,
unrighteous---but, doesn't Paul say that we are depraved
right up to the MOMENT WE BELIEVE? "For with the heart man believes,
resulting in righteousness..."
I think our only disagreement, is "where does belief/saving-faith come from?"
Our speaking the words is not what sanctifies us. His sacrifice and His election is all that is necessary.
No. Profoundly no. His sacrifice and His election have no substance for any one apart from belief; His sacrifice and election comprise
GRACE---and we are saved BY GRACE.
...THROUGH FAITH...
It does seem that our difference is the question, "does belief cause salvation, or does salvation cause belief?"
You say you agree with Peter---but apparently you take his, "He who LACKS these qualities is BLIND or SHORT-SIGHTED, having FORGOTTEN purification from former sins"---apparently you take this as "empty hyperbole"...
Let's look carefully at Romans 8:28-30---this is one of the few times the word, "PREDESTINED", appears. Let's assume it is US who are predestined---what are we predestined FOR? "To be Christlike". Predestined to salvation? It doesn't say that, does it? It says "to be Christlike". Back to "WE"---who are WE? "Those whom He
foreknew---our disparity proffers two options:
1. The "FOREKNOWN" are those He has PRE-CHOSEN-FOR-SALVATION
2. The "FOREKNOWN" are those who BELIEVE, that He knew beforehand.
Since I lean towards #2, then I don't find contradiction in the passage. To me, "Those who BELIEVE, He predestines (
THROUGH and BY that belief) to be Christlike". Now, the verse says, "Those whom He predestined, He also called". Does it say He called ALONE? No. Of
COURSE He called those who believe. I just understand that
He calls everyone else, too. So then, I find no contradiction in this passage to "Responsible Grace".
According to your definition of call, it is to every single living person. This scripture clearly states that ALL who were called were also justified and glorified.
No, it doesn't say "ALL who are called WILL be saved". Please go back to the parable of Matt22:2-14---what, exactly, do you think Jesus wanted to convey here? By the end of the story,
everyone had been called. Was everyone chosen? Certainly not. Only those who RECEIVED the invitation (they CAME),
AND clothed themselves with righteousness, only THEY were justified.
Please tell me---verse 14 says, "Many are CALLED but FEW are CHOSEN"---these are words from Jesus' own lips. Tell me---is there any way at all, that Jesus did NOT mean to convey, "many CALLED will NOT be chosen for salvation"? What do you think He meant?
How can you deny all the references to the words election, predestined, chose, choose foreknew, etc.?
On the surface, passages such as Rom8:28-29, Eph1:4-5, Rom9:14-23, and John15:16---these clearly indicate predestination. On the
surface. But then you come to passages like 2Pet2:20-22, which undeniably speaks of "real Christians losing salvation", so does James 5:19-20; 1Tim4:1 seems to also. How can we harmonize all of this? I believe the Scriptures were inspied by GOD---So He thought of that. Jesus' parable, clearly says "the CHOSEN are those who BELIEVED". And there is the 2Thess2:13, which clearly says "He chose us from the beginning ...through OUR FAITH"---how is that? Our faith didn't exist from the beginning. The only explanation, and the one which also harmonizes the "apostasy" verses, is that "JESUS was predestined from the beginning, that
whosoever BELIEVES is saved". So, "you did not choose Me but I chose you", in the sense that we do NOTHING to save ourselves---HE DID IT ALL on the Cross. We only
receive HIM, and HE SAVES us (through our faith)
The question comes back again, doesn't it? Does belief cause salvation or does salvation cause belief? "For with the heart man believes resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses resulting in salvation". It seems to me that
belief causes salvation...
Actually, and I'm sure Ben will correct me if I'm wrong , but I don't think Ben interprets "justification" as salvation.
Yes and no---by Romans 5:17-18,
justification CAME to all men---but I'm sure we agree that
only the SAVED are JUSTIFIED. So
my understanding is that "justification comes by FAITH"---back to the same question, aren't we? Does faith cause salvation or does salvation cause faith?
The thick skull remark was out of line. I apologize to you Ben and to the rest of you. I let my human weakness to allow me a moment of aggrivation.
No offense taken. I get frustrated too---I seem to explain the same things over and over again---imagine when I patiently explain for the
umpteenth time, "No, salvation is not by works, but faith is not a work---the WORK of GOD, according to Jn6:29, is that we BELIEVE---but according to Jn6:40, He DESIRES ("thelema"-will) that we believe but doesn't force it..."
(By the way, Ben, I'm joking).
I do that alot. If you can't LAUGH, what's the POINT? Anyone who doesn't know it, I do have a major streak of ornery. I
LOVE sales calls. (Often end up witnessing to them!)
"Hello, May I speak with Mrs. or Mr. Johnson please?"
"Well, this is ONE of them,
you hafta guess which one..."
(They almost always get it right...)
