Who is responsible?

[Reformationist]

As most who have had discussions with me know I believe in predestination.  My view often provokes the question that if God sovereignly foreordains everything how is man responsible for what he does.  Well, I'd like to address a different aspect of responsibility.  I would like to discuss who is responsible for my, and your, specific, individual, personal salvation.  I often read that many think "we choose to believe in God and therefore we are saved."

I have often said that if salvation was nothing more than this "thing" that we are required to take, or get, or accept, or ask for, or participate in obtaining in any way, then we are actually responsible, at least partially, for our salvation.  This, by it's very nature, shares what should be solely God's glory with us.

I contend that God is solely responsible for salvation.  After the Fall, mankind was spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) and God picked out a people for His Son, redeemed them, and is sovereignly conforming them to the image of His Son.  I know that I played no part whatsoever in my salvation.  I did not lay my request for salvation at the foot of the Cross.  Prior to God regenerating me I cared nothing for the Cross.  What changed that?  Was it hearing the Word at the right time?  No.  It was because God sovereignly reached into ME and took out MY heart of stone and replaced it with a heart of flesh.  This action was specific to me.  God gives me faith, belief, understanding, love, etc according to His own counsel.  I can acknowledge through prayer that I need all these things but God already knows what I need.  He created me.

I am not a robot.  I make decisions.  Many times they are sinful decisions.  Every decision I make, sinful or righteous, is in accordance with God's immutable, sovereign plan.  How these go together I do not completely understand.  But, that's okay.  I'm not God.  I don't need to understand everything.

So, my question is, what was it that specifically saved you.  Was it solely God's actions or was it the result of your own actions?

God bless

 

[Blackhawk]

I believe that it was God who saved me. I believe that I had a free choice about salvation but God somehow change my heart so that I would love Him. Now the reality of free choice and God's sovereignty is a mystery. And it is a topic I do not understand much at all but I know it was God who saved me and not myself. God chose me and placed me in a family that loved Him and raised me as a Christian. He also came to me at an early age and saved me from eternal torment and from a earthly life without a knowledge of Him. Even though I was young when I was "saved" I know that without God I would of not turned to Him ever. He came to my heart and my heart of ice melted because of His love for me.

All I can say is God is great! Praise be to God who is the author and finisher of my salvation!

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
All I can say is God is great! Praise be to God who is the author and finisher of my salvation!

Amen brother!!  All praise!!

 

[Wolseley]

This post is copied from the "One True Church" thread for your reading convenience.

Well, "praps" (as the British say ) I can shed some light on this.

The salvation of every human being took place in 33 AD when Christ died on the Cross.

To tap into this salvation, each individual has to believe in Christ's atoning death, and (according to denomination) be baptized.

The believer has accepted the free gift of salvation, and he has Faith at this point, but is that all he needs?

This goes into the two topics of OSAS and "faith vs. works", but here are the Scriptures:

Matt 7:21---do the will of the Father

Matt 19:16ff---keep the commandments

John 14:21---keep the commandments

Rom 2:2ff---eternal life through good works

Rom 2:5ff---God repays according to ones' works

2 Cor 5:10---repaid according to what we do

2 Cor 11:15---end corresponds to deeds

Eph 2:8ff---we are created in Christ for good works

Phil 2:12ff---work out our salvation

Col 3:24ff---recieve just payment for what we do

James 2:14ff---justified by works and not faith alone

James 2:26---faith without works is dead

1 Pet 1:17---God judges according to one's deeds

Rev 20:12ff---dead are judged according to their deeds.

These passages, taken in a body, pretty clearly indicate that while the believer must have faith to be saved, he can't just sit around and do nothing. He also has to do some things if he expects to make it to heaven. Other passages, such as Rom 11:22, 1 Cor 9:27, 1 Cor 10:11ff, Gal 5:4, Heb 6:4ff, and Heb 10:26ff, indicate that if the believer doesn't do the right things, he can actually lose his salvation.

While this flies in the face of both sola fide and OSAS, it fits in quite well with the Catholic Church's concept of faith and works being an inseparable whole, and in the concept of salvation being a lifelong process instead of a one-time event, that can be lost at any time through deliberate sin or rejection of God's grace.

As always, your mileage may vary.

 

[Gabriel]

  Don,

Are you trying to get Ben going again?

 

Oh wait, I think I hear him coming now.

 

Seriously.  It is God's grace and not our works, choice, will or any of that.  Yes, I spoke the words.  No, I would not have said them and truly meant them were it not for God's quickening of my spirit.

Thousands of people choose God during every major Billy Graham campaign.  Yet a year later less than 5% are still living for God or even regularly ettending church.  When WE CHOOSE God it is emotional and temporary, when God CHOSE us He made an eternal change, a new creation.  Never to be snatched from the Falther's hand.  Our choice = temporary emotion, God's choice = a new and eternal creature.

Take it away Ben. 

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Gabriel
  Don, 

  
Thousands of people choose God during every major Billy Graham campaign.  Yet a year later less than 5% are still living for God or even regularly ettending church.  When WE CHOOSE God it is emotional and temporary, when God CHOSE us He made an eternal change, a new creation.  Never to be snatched from the Falther's hand.  Our choice = temporary emotion, God's choice = a new and eternal creature.

Take it away Ben. 

Well Billy Graham is here in DFW right now.  I think that it is a good ministry.  We do have to choose God.  But it is God who first chose us andmakes it so we can choose Him.  So I see no problem wit Billy Graham and an altar call.  We do have believe and repent in order ot be saved.  This is clear from Romans 10.  And also God uses men like Billy Graham to help us hear the words that make it so we will repent.  (edit: this was a bd sentence.  God does not need Billy Graham to say anything. He is sovereign.  However what I was trying ot say is that He uses men like Billy Graham to say words that God uses to convict us. That basically we are the hands and feet of God.  We get to partner with God in doing His will.  He does not need us but He lets us be a part of it anyways to bless us. Long edit over )

 

Now it is God's doing but God uses men like Billy Graham to bring us closer to Him.  Does this make sense? 

blackhawk

 

[Reformationist]

Wolseley, are trying to make me think I've gone crazy?  You posted this same post in another thread and I thought I had replied to your post in the wrong thread!!!

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Gabriel
When WE CHOOSE God it is emotional and temporary, when God CHOSE us He made an eternal change, a new creation.  Never to be snatched from the Falther's hand.  Our choice = temporary emotion, God's choice = a new and eternal creature.

Veeeerrry nicely said! 

Take it away Ben. 

No Ben, please don't.

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Does this make sense? 

blackhawk

I think it does.  I just think it's important to make a couple of distinctions.  First, the source of it is solely the counsel of God.  Second, He does not extend this love to all mankind.  It is His love (not the emotion, the action) that changes us into His children.  He doesn't change everyone therefore it is not His Will that everyone be changed.

God bless

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Reformationist
I think it does.  I just think it's important to make a couple of distinctions.  First, the source of it is solely the counsel of God.  Second, He does not extend this love to all mankind.  It is His love (not the emotion, the action) that changes us into His children.  He doesn't change everyone therefore it is not His Will that everyone be changed.

God bless

True.  I think my edit clears things up a little. But yes the source is completly God and it is not God's will that all be saved.  Oh my gosh I said it.   

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
But yes the source is completly God and it is not God's will that all be saved.  Oh my gosh I said it.   

Glad to see that you are learning some things in that school!!

God bless,

Don

 

[eldermike]

There is a Spirt in your heart, the one that calls out to the Father. Who put it there?

GAL 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by eldermike
There is a Spirt in your heart, the one that calls out to the Father. Who put it there?

GAL 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6 Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father." 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.

Nicely said Mike.  I have to ask though, do you think He put that same Spirit in all men?  And if so, why is it that the same Spirit works differently in some than in others?

Thanks,

God bless

 

[DaveKerwin]

Don,

I don't think we can say for sure what the case is.

 

[eldermike]

I have to ask though, do you think He put that same Spirit in all men? And if so, why is it that the same Spirit works differently in some than in others?

It's the same Spirit IMHO, but we can resist as we see in many examples in the Bible. Jonah comes to mind.

I can adopt a child and the child can resist me also but it's still my child.
Blessings

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Blackhawk
Well Billy Graham is here in DFW right now.  I think that it is a good ministry.  We do have to choose God.  But it is God who first chose us andmakes it so we can choose Him.  So I see no problem wit Billy Graham and an altar call.  We do have believe and repent in order ot be saved.  This is clear from Romans 10.  And also God uses men like Billy Graham to help us hear the words that make it so we will repent.  (edit: this was a bd sentence.  God does not need Billy Graham to say anything. He is sovereign.  However what I was trying ot say is that He uses men like Billy Graham to say words that God uses to convict us. That basically we are the hands and feet of God.  We get to partner with God in doing His will.  He does not need us but He lets us be a part of it anyways to bless us. Long edit over )

 

Now it is God's doing but God uses men like Billy Graham to bring us closer to Him.  Does this make sense? 

blackhawk

 

Makes sense to me. 

I wasn't trying to rag on old Billy.  I think alter calls are great.  Billy is devoting his life to doing what God wants us to do.  My point was more about man's temporary state of mind vs. God's eternal choice.

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by eldermike
It's the same Spirit IMHO, but we can resist as we see in many examples in the Bible. Jonah comes to mind.

I can adopt a child and the child can resist me also but it's still my child.
Blessings

True.  So are you saying that the salvific grace is not resistable but we can resist other forms of grce?   What I am saying is that we do not resist God's saving grace but we can sin thus resisting God in some senses. 

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by eldermike
It's the same Spirit IMHO, but we can resist as we see in many examples in the Bible. Jonah comes to mind.

I can adopt a child and the child can resist me also but it's still my child.
Blessings

 

Jonah resisted God's plan for Jonah's works.  He did not resist God's election or salvation.  It is quite true that we can resist what we are supposed to do, if He allows us to.  However, as Jonah's eventual compliance shows, "Resistance is futile!"

 

[Blackhawk]

Originally posted by Gabriel
 

Makes sense to me. 

I wasn't trying to rag on old Billy.  I think alter calls are great.  Billy is devoting his life to doing what God wants us to do.  My point was more about man's temporary state of mind vs. God's eternal choice.

Cool.  What you said is true though of many of the people who go down during the altar call.  It is what Jesus spoke of with His parable of the different kinds of soils.  (sorry i forgot the title) 

 

[eldermike]

So are you saying that the salvific grace is not resistable but we can resist other forms of grce? What I am saying is that we do not resist God's saving grace but we can sin thus resisting God in some senses.

Yes and No. I hate answers like that

We can resist and ruin our very short lives on earth. Soloman is a good example.
We can also be brought to our knees by our circumstances. God did this to several men in scripture.

We know the fruits of the Spirit and the cost of the flesh (Galations)
If we live by Spirit we will have Joy, Peace ............and so on
But yes, we can resist and quench the Spirit but I can find no example of this action taken by man overturning the adoption into the family of God.

Blessings