Who is more important, Jesus or Paul?

[Fireinfolding]

Heres a few decent ones on being taught

Psalm 25:8 Good and upright is the LORD:
therefore will he teach sinners in the way.

Even as Jesus said I am "the way"

John 8:28 When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he,
and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The LORD teaching sinners in the way (even as he was accused of receiving sinners)
but the Father was teaching them by Christ

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings:
and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

Even so will the Holy ghost be given to teach them all things

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Cr 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

And concerning them that would seduce them John says,

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

A teacher telling them they need not that any man teach them.

Even as Jesus said, as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things. this was spoken of beforehand in Moses

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee,
and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

He was speaking by commandmant

John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment,
what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jesus also affirming that,

John 6:45-46 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.
Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

And Paul says accordingly writes,

Ephes 4:21-23 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
And be renewed in the spirit of your mind

And Peter could have argued that Paul did not walk with Jesus in the flesh and wasnt taught the gospel correctly

Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

And here when it says,

Ephes 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are given for the perfecting of the saints

Ephes 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Until we all come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

And even though a disciple is not above his master Jesus said, "every one that is perfect shall be as his master". Luke 6:40

And the purpose of this is in the next verse

Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Because of these evil men who lie in wait to deceive with all their messed up doctrines versus speaking the truth as he continues,

Ephes 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Christ, from whom...

Ephes 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth,
according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

And what did Paul instruct us as touching brotherly love?

1 Thes 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you:
for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another

Again, taught by God there also

And then again here he says,

Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

When it comes to the same John writes

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

The teacher is he that teaches that ye need not a teacher but to trust in him

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Trust in him not men. Also in Deut 13:3 he would prove them by false prophets, it also says,

Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm,
and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Our confidence should always be in God

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end

Psalm 118:8 It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man.
.
God who spoke by the prophets which testify that it is written in the same they shall be taught of God is quoted by Jesus Christ who also
said " as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things" who also said to them concerning the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in his name, that " he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. And of the same he taught told his little children that, "ye need not that any man teach you and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Teaching others to have trust in God and faith in Christ.

Also God can change our mind on something that we might be otherwise minded on

Phil 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded,
God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[rturner76]

Is it considered leaning on our own understanding in departing from evil?

Job 28:28 Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
and to depart from evil is understanding.

And considering that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God
which is profitable for reproof,

It says similarly.

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you,
I will make known my words unto you.

Even that "the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding" Job 32:8

Just as Jesus is shown opening their understanding in Luke

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures (Luke 24:45)

Paul says,

2 Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise
unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Even the apostle has confidence in the Lord's ability to give understanding in all things

2 Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

We have the Old Testament which Jesus often referred to. What is known a Torah in the Jewish tradition. Which would make sense as he taught Torah as a Jew in the Temple as a circumcised boy. Now, when we refer to the New Testament, we refer to the Epistles and the Gospels which were not recognized as divinely inspired writings by the universal church. It makes me wonder why we would trust the founding fathers of The Church to inform us what teachings are divinly inspired if we also have no need for that unbroken line of teachers to inform us on how to correctly interpret those scriptures?

Is it your position that one only needs the New Testament and we have no need for instruction

As it says in Proverbs:
Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers,
and blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord

and
Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.Whoever heeds discipline shows the way to life,
but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.

Would that seem to indicate we have no need for a teacher other than scripture itself?

Then if we look to the New Testament in the book of Timothy it says:

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

Also in 2 Timothy:
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

And Collisions:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.


There are many other verses that we could go to that confirm that we need not only scripture but a teacher.

Just to confirm it seems to clearly say in Proverbs to:
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

EDIT: What I am asking/getting at is the question do we have no need for teachers? That would beg the question, is there no place in The Church for Pastor, Priests, Presbyters, or Bishops?

I don't think that any Bible verse you have quoted bears that out. In fact, I think you have confirmed our need for good teachers. What you have posted is instructive and useful, however I haven't read anything that confirms that we have no need for teachers.

 

[Fireinfolding]

We have the Old Testament which Jesus often referred to. What is known a Torah in the Jewish tradition. Which would make sense as he taught Torah as a Jew in the Temple as a circumcised boy. Now, when we refer to the New Testament, we refer to the Epistles and the Gospels which were not recognized as divinely inspired writings by the universal church. It makes me wonder why we would trust the founding fathers of The Church to inform us what teachings are divinly inspired if we also have no need for that unbroken line of teachers to inform us on how to correctly interpret those scriptures?

Is it your position that one only needs the New Testament and we have no need for instruction

As it says in Proverbs:
Whoever gives heed to instruction prospers,
and blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord

No, says all scripture

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction

I had posted that verse

and
Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.Whoever heeds discipline shows the way to life,
but whoever ignores correction leads others astray.

Would that seem to indicate we have no need for a teacher other than scripture itself?

Ofcourse they preached

2 Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

Even when John wrote to them about not having any man teach them that was written to them because of those who were seducing them somewhat how a false church might consistently preach themselves and has lost the message of Jesus Christ.

Then if we look to the New Testament in the book of Timothy it says:

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction.

Roman 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

Again, Paul wrote to Timothy telling him the scriptures were profitable for correction and instruction.

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God,
and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction

So why wouldnt he preach them?

Also in 2 Timothy:
Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.

To present yourself to God as one approved

2 Cr 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved,
but whom the Lord commendeth.

Whom the Lord commendeth

Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us:
whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

God commended Paul to her

And Collisions:
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Why wouldn't we? Where is the collision? Jesus Christ did the same, because these are they which testify of him

Luke 24:46 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

Luke 24:7 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

They sang hymns

Mat 25:30 And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives.

There are many other verses that we could go to that confirm that we need not only scripture but a teacher.

I already posted (twice)


Ephes 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are given for the perfecting of the saints

Ephes 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Until we all come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Just to confirm it seems to clearly say in Proverbs to:
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.

God giving us an understanding is not leaning on your own, " liftest up thy voice for understanding"

Psalm 119:69 Let my cry come near before thee, O LORD: give me understanding according to thy word.

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

In Jesus Christ,

Luke 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, to day and forever

EDIT: What I am asking/getting at is the question do we have no need for teachers? That would beg the question, is there no place in The Church for Pastor, Priests, Presbyters, or Bishops?

I don't think that any Bible verse you have quoted bears that out. In fact, I think you have confirmed our need for good teachers. What you have posted is instructive and useful, however I haven't read anything that confirms that we have no need for teachers.

See Ephes 4:11 I keep posting it. Third time

Ephes 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are given for the perfecting of the saints

Ephes 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Until we all come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Purpose,

Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Even as John (a teacher) also confirms

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

They taught that they do not preach themselves (as some churches only preach themselves) but Christ and encouraging them to put their confidence in the Lord and growing them up in Christ so that men will no longer sway them in their corrupt desires to Lord over their faith and teach them other doctrines to draw disciples after them.

Sorry lots of typos edited three times, I really stink at typing

 

[rturner76]

Is it considered leaning on our own understanding in departing from evil?

Job 28:28 Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom;
and to depart from evil is understanding.

And considering that all scripture is given by the inspiration of God
which is profitable for reproof,

It says similarly.

Proverbs 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you,
I will make known my words unto you.

Even that "the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding" Job 32:8

Just as Jesus is shown opening their understanding in Luke

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures (Luke 24:45)

Paul says,

2 Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise
unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Even the apostle has confidence in the Lord's ability to give understanding in all things

2 Ti 2:7 Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.

Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures (Luke 24:45)

This would seem to indicate that the foubdibg fathers did in fact have the authority to teach

Even when John wrote to them about not having any man teach them that was written to them because of those who were seducing them somewhat how a false church might consistently preach themselves and has lost the message of Jesus Christ.

Were the founding fathers and Apostles also in error when they approved and confirmed the Biblical Cannon if the New Testament/.

Again, I don't see where any of the scripture you have quoted says anything like there is no need for a teacher. Of course we need HELP from the Holy Spirit but I haven't seen any verses that state that we hve no need for a teacher like these........Which I believe I have already quoted:

:Luke 6:40 “The student is not above the teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like their teacher.”

2 Timothy 2:15 “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.”

Peter 3:15 “But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect.”

Matthew 10:24 “The student is not above the teacher, nor a servant above his master.”

2 Timothy 1:11 “And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher.”


Ephesians 4: 11-16 “So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of people in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will grow to become in every respect the mature body of him who is the head, that is, Christ. From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.”

It would be very helpful for my edification if one was able to show how these verses (and numerous others) elude to the fact that we as Christians have no need for a teacher of scripture.. By showing how we DO need the help of the Holy Spirit to understand scripture

 

[Fireinfolding]

This would seem to indicate that the foubdibg fathers did in fact have the authority to teach

Were the founding fathers and Apostles also in error when they approved and confirmed the Biblical Cannon if the New Testament/.

Again, I don't see where any of the scripture you have quoted says anything like there is no need for a teacher.

Where did I say anything about no teachers?

It was John (who was a teacher) who said,

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Lets try this again, for the fourth time

Ephes 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are given for the perfecting of the saints

Ephes 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Until we all come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Purpose,

Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

 

[Fireinfolding]

And concerning them that would seduce them John says,

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

A teacher telling them they need not that any man teach them.

-----Posted these, above, and below) twice on same reply my comments paraphrasing in red

When it comes to the same John writes

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

The teacher is he that teaches that ye need not a teacher but to trust in him

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

The second one I should have written what I did on the first. Instead of paraphrasing John that ye need not any man teach you I wrote that John (the teacher) is teaching them they need not a teacher so just use what John says, he said it.

 

[rturner76]

Where did I say anything about no teachers?

It was John (who was a teacher) who said,

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Lets try this again, for the fourth time

Ephes 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are given for the perfecting of the saints

Ephes 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Until we all come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Purpose,

Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

It looks like I may have either misunderstood your post(s) or I got my responses mixed up with my responses for another poster. Apologies......So we agree that we require teachers and not just the text of the New text of the New Testament text. I had been in dialog with someone who implied that all one needs is the New Testament and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

It was John (who was a teacher) who said,

1 John 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you:
but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Lets try this again, for the fourth time

Ephes 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are given for the perfecting of the saints

Ephes 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Until we all come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Purpose,

Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

 

[Fireinfolding]

It looks like I may have either misunderstood your post(s) or I got my responses mixed up with my responses for another poster. Apologies......So we agree that we require teachers and not just the text of the New text of the New Testament text. I had been in dialog with someone who implied that all one needs is the New Testament and guidance from the Holy Spirit.

I agree with the Holy Spirit inspired teachers in the scriptures which I posted who write to us themselves about teachers and who have also written to us about those who would seduce us and that they too could trust in the Spirit to teach them (without need of a man).

There is no better guide than the Holy Spirit, thats' what he does. Surely he can do that better than any man but that does not mean he can't do the same through man (he can and does). We learn from him in private and also through others who have the Holy Spirit, so both.

He is the necessary one in either case.

 

[rturner76]

Is it considered leaning on our own understanding in departing from evil?

I didn't mean to imply that, what I was eluding to was our need for guidance when divining scripture.

As it says in the book of Proverbs:
"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it"

Even from childhood, we require "training." and teaching


I'm not saying that we can't learn anything by just picking up the Bible, I am saying we also need teachers to instruct us.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I didn't mean to imply that, what I was eluding to was our need for guidance when divining scripture.

As it says in the book of Proverbs:
"Train up a child in the way he should go; even when he is old he will not depart from it"

Even from childhood, we require "training." and teaching


I'm not saying that we can't learn anything by just picking up the Bible, I am saying we also need teachers to instruct us.

You do realize I quoted that verse on the Pronouns thread concerning parents teaching their own children in post #136 and you had a problem with that in your following response post # 137. Now you are here quoting it to me.

And again,

2 Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Lets try this a fifth time

Who did God give us?

Ephes 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are given for the perfecting of the saints

Ephes 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

That we be henceforth no more what?

Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Until we be no more children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, and what is of use that the man of God may be perfect?

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

2 Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[rturner76]

You do realize I quoted that verse on the Pronouns thread concerning parents teaching their own children in post #136 and you had a problem with that in your following response post # 137. Now you are here quoting it to me.

And again,

2 Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Lets try this a fifth time

Who did God give us?

Ephes 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

These are given for the perfecting of the saints

Ephes 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Till we all come unto the perfect man

Ephes 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

That we be henceforth no more what?

Ephes 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Until we be no more children tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine, and what is of use that the man of God may be perfect?

2 Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

2 Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Apologies for my confusion. I will leave it here. Thank you for clarifying so many times.