When people make THAT statement, I have to wonder if they don't know the difference between a spirit and someone still living in the flesh?When people make this statement, I have to wonder if they ever ask anyone to pray for them?
Whether they are in the flesh or not, they are still persons and they are still in Christ's body, the Church.When people make THAT statement, I have to wonder if they don't know the difference between a spirit and someone still living in the flesh?
As explained above, it is out of humility that we seek the prayers of righteous men and women over our own poor prayers. I know we've been over this many times before, and every time I bring up some of the many examples of the intercession of the Saints in the Orthodox Church you drop the discussion. This isn't just a theological view, this is the lived and frequently experienced reality in the Orthodox Church.Even if we were to rationalize away that difference and misread the verse that instructs us to pray for each other, praying to a spirit is done in the belief that they have "pull" with God and we want that extra leverage.
My only purpose here is to provide the Scriptural basis that these teachings are not contrary to Scripture as some profess, and there is indeed evidence within Scripture that they are true.According to the ProtEvangelium of James it was done by a lady called Salome after she had been told by Marys midwife that she remained a virgin after birth. Salome went to the stable to check. So there were two witnesses according to the book.
Chp 19:18 - 20:11
And the midwife departed from the cave and met Salome and said to her, "Salome, Salome, I have to describe this new miracle for you. A virgin has given birth, although her body does not allow it." (19) And Salome said, "As the Lord my God lives, unless I insert my finger and investigate her, I will not believe that a virgin has given birth." CHAPTER 20 (1) And the midwife went in and said, "Mary, position yourself, for not a small test concerning you is about to take place." (2) When Mary heard these things, she positioned herself. And Salome inserted her finger into her body. (3) And Salome cried out and said, "Woe for my lawlessness and the unbelief that made me test the living God. Look, my hand is falling away from me and being consumed in fire." (5) And Salome dropped to her knees before the Lord, saying, "God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, (6) do not expose me to the children of Israel, but give me back to the poor. (7) For you know, Lord, that I have performed service and received my wage from you." (8) Suddenly, an angel of the Lord appeared, saying to her, "Salome, Salome, the Lord of all has heard your entreaty. (9) Stretch out your hand to the child and lift him up and he will be salvation and joy for you." (10) And Salome went to the child and lifted him up, saying, "I worship him because he has been born a king to Israel." (11) And at once Salome was healed and left the cave justified.
But this sounds the more fanciful part of the account and a little contrived like it was answering the question you raised rather than giving an account of what actually happened. I am not convinced of the necessity of perpetual virginity, can see no good biblical grounds to accept it and it neither adds nor detracts from my respect for Mary. I am inclined to accept the assumption but on a provisional basis, it is biblically possible and there is a strong early tradition for it. But again with Immaculate conception really do not see the necessity of it and can find no strong case for it. Even in the Gospel of James which is a pro Mary as you can get the doctrine is not obvious in the text.
Even evangelical faiths have the concept of a "prayer warrior." From this site:When people make THAT statement, I have to wonder if they don't know the difference between a spirit and someone still living in the flesh?
Even if we were to rationalize away that difference and misread the verse that instructs us to pray for each other, praying to a spirit is done in the belief that they have "pull" with God and we want that extra leverage.
Praying to God on behalf of a neighbor, by contrast, is simply to petition God in the same way as the person being prayed for does himself. Doing this just adds more voices in prayer and is done in keeping with the Biblical admonition to "pray unceasingly."
But when it comes to us praying to someone, that similarity doesn't govern the situation.Whether they are in the flesh or not, they are still persons and they are still in Christ's body, the Church.
Well, what more is there to say? You insist that the saints are admirable THEREFORE we should pray to them, which is a non-sequitur for sure.I know we've been over this many times before, and every time I bring up some of the many examples of the intercession of the Saints in the Orthodox Church you drop the discussion.
The Protoevangelium is based on Orthodox Tradition, not the other way around.
At a minimum there is a tacit approval of the practice in Scripture.But when it comes to us praying to someone, that similarity doesn't govern the situation.
Well, what more is there to say? You insist that the saints are admirable THEREFORE we should pray to them, which is a non-sequitur for sure.
And then to keep the record straight, I point out that there is no Biblical justification for the practice as well as other logical problems, such as the fact that we do not even know if they can hear us, let alone grant our petitions.
Again, with the rationalizing....if these people are more effective at prayer than others, who would you suggest would be better at that than someone who is already perfected in charity and living with God in heaven?
But we Christians do not simply continue every religious practice of some Jews from Old Testament times.At a minimum there is a tacit approval of the practice in Scripture.
Judaism prior to the time of Christ had a long-standing practice of praying at Rachel's tomb which you can research. Their tradition is that the first to pray at her tomb was her son Joseph when he had been sold into slavery by his brothers.
Take it up with gotquestions.org, a well known Evangelical site if you disagree with the concept that some are prayer warriors and more effective at praying than others. They have contact info on their site.Again, with the rationalizing.
It would be possible to argue that a turtle is a maple tree is one is given enough latitude to argue that something must be something else so long as there is any connection or similarity whatsoever.
We do not do that with other doctrines, but when it comes to this one, it's in full view.
Reminds me of that question: "Why do they paint Fire Engines red?"
Here's the answer:
Fire engines have eight wheels and four firemen; eight and four is twelve; there are twelve inches on a ruler; Queen Elizabeth I was a ruler; her ships sailed the seas; the seas have fish; fish have fins; the Finns fought the Russians; and the Russians were Reds.
Easy. Convincing (?)
Take it up with Matthew who saw fit to include it in his New Testament Gospel instead of pointing out that Christians shouldn't do that.But we Christians do not simply continue every religious practice of some Jews from Old Testament times.
Indeed the two religions are different in many ways. And we also know that the New Testament explicitly advises us that we are not to be governed by preexisting Jewish customs.
No one denied that prayer warriors are effective at praying.Take it up with gotquestions.org, a well known Evangelical site if you disagree with the concept that some are prayer warriors and more effective at praying than others. They have contact info on their site.
It's easy to make both of those claims, but that's where it ends unless you are willing to identify are what you are referring to.Take it up with Matthew who saw fit to include it in his New Testament Gospel instead of pointing out that Christians shouldn't do that.
Besides, you said there was no Biblical evidence that they could even hear us. That's not true.
Done and done, take it or leave it, up to you. Scripture is clear that Rachel was both aware of what was happening to her children and interceded on their behalf, and Matthew recognized and validated that.It's easy to make both of those claims, but that's where it ends unless you are willing to identify are what you are referring to.
Being in Christ certainly does.But when it comes to us praying to someone, that similarity doesn't govern the situation.
Sure, if that was my argument, which it never has been.Well, what more is there to say? You insist that the saints are admirable THEREFORE we should pray to them, which is a non-sequitur for sure.
That is like a blind man arguing that colours don't exist to people with healthy eyes.And then to keep the record straight, I point out that there is no Biblical justification for the practice as well as other logical problems, such as the fact that we do not even know if they can hear us, let alone grant our petitions.
Not in the posts your comment was in response to, no.You've never endorsed the idea of praying to saints presumed to be in heaven on the basis that they are righteous and part of the body of Christ?????
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