Who is in charge here?

Mark Quayle

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The Achilles heel of Reformed theology is eschatology. John Calvin failed to include a commentary on the Revelation in his other commentaries, leaving the door wide open to later Reformed theologians in the area of eschatology. The high point of American Reformed influence came in the mid-nineteenth century when Post Millennialism was wildly popular and was proclaimed from the Reformed pulpits and sung lustily in hymns such as "Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord." The concept was quite easy - eliminate the evil of slavery from America and the Millennium would commence.

Unfortunately, despite the gruesome Civil War the Millennium failed to develop. Instead there were major financial panics in 1873 and 1893 with subsequent economic depressions.

Not to be dissuaded, Reformed theologians regrouped and determined that the issue preventing the Millennium was the production and consumption of alcohol. When America achieved righteousness in eliminating alcohol, then the Millennium was bound to begin. In fact, one of the leading Reformed publications at the beginning of the twentieth century was called "The Christian Century" for that reason. So what happened? The Prohibition of alcohol was enshrined in the American constitution. Then came World War I with its disastrous consequences. Then came the Roaring Twenties with loosening morality. Then came the Great Depression and the repeal of Prohibition. Then came World War II. By then Reformed eschatology (specifically Post-Millennialism) was in complete tatters and most Reformed denominations had completely abandoned eschatology entirely, limiting themselves to rants against Dispensationalism.

Today, a few Reformed folks are attempting to develop some form of alternate eschatology to Dispensationalism. Preterism, in various forms, has been attempted and has generally been rejected. That pretty much leaves amillennialism in a very generic form, which isn't much to hang your hat on.
FWIW I don't consider Reformed Theology a whole system. It is a reaction to falsehood, more than a systematic theology. It does present a mindset or worldview, but it need not, for that, promote one eschatology over another.

Edit: I'm not sure why it should be expected to do so.
 
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Guojing

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No. I have not yet come to a firm conclusion, though I tend to something more literal than Amillennialism.

If you are leaning towards the view that Jesus is fully in charge of this Earth now, that means the Day of the Lord to you has passed and we are living in a symbolic millennium currently.
 
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TexFire316

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The Father is in charge, now and always. The One Whom Jesus prays to and worships. The One on who's right hand Jesus now sits.
Jesus fully represents the Father. The obediant Son. The Lamb of the Father, who paid the price of death for all of us.
Our eyes get clouded and our minds muddied up with the things of religion. The church.
The things of God is quite simple, can even be reduced to two commandments. Our organized religion is what makes us confused and unsure,
Faith. We must have faith that God has a plan, and will bring it to pass. Including us, the people of God, one day fully understanding the things (such as this) that we can't understant yet.
As much as Jesus loves us, the Father loves us even more. As pure and holy as Jesus is, the Father is even more pure and holy.
Jesus paid the price to bring us to the Father, we should be learning about Him. We will be spending an eternity with both of them.
 
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Mark Quayle

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If you are leaning towards the view that Jesus is fully in charge of this Earth now, that means the Day of the Lord to you has passed and we are living in a symbolic millennium currently.
Only because you look on the surface; Satan is running things here on earth, in his opposition to God, which is what God has ordained for now. Satan can do nothing without God's permission.
 
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Hammster

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I see that you believe in Amillennialism, no wonder you hold that doctrine.

760px-Millennial_views.svg.png
I’m not Amil.
 
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Hammster

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If you are leaning towards the view that Jesus is fully in charge of this Earth now, that means the Day of the Lord to you has passed and we are living in a symbolic millennium currently.
And it could be that you misunderstand “day of the Lord”. There have been many in the past. No need to think it’s the “final” day.
 
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Davy

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Let’s take a look.

Here’s the parallel passage in Luke:


“You are those who have stood by Me in My trials; and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
— Luke 22:28-30

Jesus grants them a kingdom. It’s a present tense verb. It’s not future.

And their preaching did bring judgement upon the twelve tribes. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple proves that.

Nah, the Luke 22 passage is still future, you're only wanting to read into it a doctrine of men that you are following. The kicker to the time of that verse being true is when Christ's 12 Apostles literally... sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Obviously, those you follow have forgotten to tell you what that means, because it involves the return of ALL 12 tribes of Israel back to the holy land in the middle east, and it means each Apostle literally... siting upon a throne judging over one of the 12 tribes. Their establishing back in the land is per Scripture like Ezekiel 48, and it has not happened yet today!
 
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Hammster

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A question for you.
You are in prison. The Warden of the prison, the Guard of your block, or your burly cellmate - who is in charge?
Jesus.
 
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Hammster

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Nah, the Luke 22 passage is still future, you're only wanting to read into it a doctrine of men that you are following. The kicker to the time of that verse being true is when Christ's 12 Apostles literally... sit upon 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. Obviously, those you follow have forgotten to tell you what that means, because it involves the return of ALL 12 tribes of Israel back to the holy land in the middle east, and it means each Apostle literally... siting upon a throne judging over one of the 12 tribes. Their establishing back in the land is per Scripture like Ezekiel 48, and it has not happened yet today!
It was in the future for them. But not for us. Hence, He said the kingdom was bestowed upon them. So as the kingdom was granted to Him, He granted it to them. Ezekiel 48 is future for his readers. It’s the past for us.

You are following the doctrine of men.
 
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Hammster

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Let's say my burly cellmate, Bubba, gets feisty. And one day Bubba wants my blanket because it is cold, so he takes it. Since Jesus is "in charge", is Jesus responsible for the theft of my blanket?
If you want to start a thread about prison, feel free.
 
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Mark Quayle

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A question for you.
You are in prison. The Warden of the prison, the Guard of your block, or your burly cellmate - who is in charge?
Depends on the Warden, haha
 
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Guojing

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And it could be that you misunderstand “day of the Lord”. There have been many in the past. No need to think it’s the “final” day.

I see, so the Day of the Lord refers to a different outcome to you.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Another veiled and failed attempt at promoting predestination.

Who is in charge you ask? You are in charge of yourself, I am in charge of myself, etc.
What will you say when you find out God is in charge of your life?
 
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Hammster

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I see, so the Day of the Lord refers to a different outcome to you.
No, it refers to different things throughout scripture. Look it up for yourself. It’s a day of judgement in both the old and New Testaments. But it never means the end. And every place in the NT, it’s referring to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.
 
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Hammster

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Another veiled and failed attempt at promoting predestination.

Who is in charge you ask? You are in charge of yourself, I am in charge of myself, etc.
Predestination was never in view here. The OP was clear. And if you think you’re in charge, read Matthew 28:18.
 
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concretecamper

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