Who is going to adjudge that God is unjust?

[BNR32FAN]

But if He did?

Could you accept, that, on the basis, that Gods decisions and actions are the outworking of perfection, personified, regards Fair and Impartial?
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If He did then it would contradict the definition of the word just. People are so blinded by this doctrine that they can’t even comprehend the definition of simple words that elementary school kids understand. Words like “all, all men, Savior of the world, the whole world. Calvin’s interpretations not only contradict the scriptures but also the definition of these words.

 

[bling]

Well we have discussed some tangents to the OP as a correlation... so I want to refocus on the subject matter of the OP.

What ever God chooses to do is necessarily righteous... Would you agree?
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yes

 

[moonbeam]

yes

And exploring that further... the implication is that any adjudgment of Gods conduct, from the creaturely perspective as a human... is rendered not only moot, through lack of comprehensive knowledge, but as an affront also, in that the thought was thought that God would be unjust if He had acted in the manner (your assessment) prescribed in that particular circumstance under review.
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[moonbeam]

If He did then it would contradict the definition of the word just. People are so blinded by this doctrine that they can’t even comprehend the definition of simple words that elementary school kids understand. Words like “all, all men, Savior of the world, the whole world. Calvin’s interpretations not only contradict the scriptures but also the definition of these words.

I am afraid that it is you who are unwilling to accept that Gods actions are off necessity perfection personified... and being perfection personified those actions are beyond the scope of your mind to qualify or quantify.

That is why the word - "just "- has a specific definition... when that definition is applied to God, in an interrogatory sense... it has no impact and comes away empty-handed.
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[fhansen]

Who is going to adjudge that God is unjust?

The matter of concern is more than a common feature of soteriological debate… and can be summarised as follows.

“That would make God unjust…” - is a typical concise example of how many theological discussions concerning a vast array of subject matter inevitably conclude…and upon that statement..that adjudgment…many weighty matters are determined...incorrectly in my estimation.

Those who make such statements, and they are many, find it so incredibly easy to arrive at that place…it seems as such a natural flow of deductive thought that it is inescapable and so rightly determinative in regards reaching a final and decisive conclusion.

Does it ever cross their minds, even for a brief moment, that in doing so, they have merely transposed themselves into the exact same position, theologically, and personally, of the man adjudged by God to be the most righteous man alive Job?

And what was the result for Job?

That will inevitably be the same result for you... head down with mind and body in subordinate acceptance...of what is inevitably, your unjust adjudgment of God.

Does that thought ever cross your mind when you say - That would make God unjust?

We know what good and evil are, what justice and injustice are. If God were to directly will every instance of rape and torture and murder, for example. that would make Him unjust. Unless, of course, we think that it would be good for ourselves or loved ones to be raped and tortured and murdered. "Thank you God, that was great. Praise and glory to your mighty name!" With such a God there would be no reason to think that heaven would be any better than hell.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I am afraid that it is you who are unwilling to accept that Gods actions are off necessity perfection personified... and being perfection personified those actions are beyond the scope of your mind to qualify or quantify.

That is why the word - "just "- has a specific definition... when that definition is applied to God, in an interrogatory sense... it has no impact and comes away empty-handed.
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No this is just your way of ignoring what the Bible teaches us about God’s character by saying He can do anything He wants and still remain just because your theology teaches that God is unjust so just like in every other aspect of Calvin’s theology you’re forced to redefine words that are written in the scriptures that contradict your theology. According to your definition of the word “just” it means anything we want it to mean. Just face it your theology contradicts what the Bible teaches us about God that He is fair and impartial. The Bible specifically says that He is impartial and still Calvinists refuse to accept what the scriptures say.

 

[bling]

And exploring that further... the implication is that any adjudgment of Gods conduct, from the creaturely perspective as a human... is rendered not only moot, through lack of comprehensive knowledge, but as an affront also, in that the thought was thought that God would be unjust if He had acted in the manner (your assessment) prescribed in that particular circumstance under review.
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God does the absolute very best thing that can be do without any “adjustments” to His conduct.

Prophecies concerning God’s future actions have to be taken as being contingent on man’s future actions (Jer. 18). We need to take prophecies concerning God’s future actions as warnings to control our actions.

I am not “perceiving” any change, God has made it known that if we change, He will change His actions no matter what was prophesied.

 

[moonbeam]

We know what good and evil are, what justice and injustice are. If God were to directly will every instance of rape and torture and murder, for example. that would make Him unjust. Unless, of course, we think that it would be good for ourselves or loved ones to be raped and tortured and murdered. "Thank you God, that was great. Praise and glory to your mighty name!" With such a God there would be no reason to think that heaven would be any better than hell.

How much less man, who is a maggot, And a son of man, who is a worm?” - Job 25:6

Your a maggot... and you have it in your mind to determine if Gods actions are just (fair and impartial)

I see a bit of a mismatch ... You (maggot) vs the Living God

While I admire your courage...
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[moonbeam]

God does the absolute very best thing that can be do without any “adjustments” to His conduct.

Prophecies concerning God’s future actions have to be taken as being contingent on man’s future actions (Jer. 18). We need to take prophecies concerning God’s future actions as warnings to control our actions.

I am not “perceiving” any change, God has made it known that if we change, He will change His actions no matter what was prophesied.

God in His essential essence is a being perfect in every way imaginable, perfectly self satisfied, self sustaining life,... for the creature (you) to think to be able to determine Gods actions whether they be just, that is fair and impartial... is laughable.
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[moonbeam]

No this is just your way of ignoring what the Bible teaches us about God’s character by saying He can do anything He wants and still remain just because your theology teaches that God is unjust so just like in every other aspect of Calvin’s theology you’re forced to redefine words that are written in the scriptures that contradict your theology. According to your definition of the word “just” it means anything we want it to mean. Just face it your theology contradicts what the Bible teaches us about God that He is fair and impartial. The Bible specifically says that He is impartial and still Calvinists refuse to accept what the scriptures say.

I just want to know one thing... Did God stand up to your scrutiny?
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[bling]

God in His essential essence is a being perfect in every way imaginable, perfectly self satisfied, self sustaining life,... for the creature (you) to think to be able to determine Gods actions whether they be just, that is fair and impartial... is laughable.
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God sent Jesus as a human to help us understand Him. Jesus is just like what God the Father would be in human form on earth. So how is the Justice/fairness of Jesus different from the Justice of what we see in scripture? Love ultimately defines God, so we have Loving justice, very limited by what is the most Loving.

 

[fhansen]

How much less man, who is a maggot, And a son of man, who is a worm?” - Job 25:6

Your a maggot... and you have it in your mind to determine if Gods actions are just (fair and impartial)

I see a bit of a mismatch ... You (maggot) vs the Living God

While I admire your courage...
.

God is love. If that's consistent with rape, torture, murder, genocide, adultery, then we'll have to redefine everything else that He's taught us, we'll have to redefine good and evil or just eliminate the terms altogether as meaningless.

God is infinitely superior to us but we're also made in His image, and He gave us a brain which He wants us to use rather than turn off, and rather than taking an isolated verse or two out of 30 some odd thousand in Scripture and using that to build a theology. The important point of passages such as Job 25:6 is that man must come to know his place, the vast difference between creature and Creator, a lesson Adam failed to grasp right off the bat in Eden.

If He directly wills evil then He's still ineffably superior to us and yet, as I said, it would make no difference whether we followed Him or not in that case.

 

[Paleouss]

“That would make God unjust…” - is a typical concise example of how many theological discussions

Hello moonbeam. Nice to meet you. I don't think I have read any of your posts before. So excuse me if I don't know your position on things. Peace to you, brother.

I would agree with you on one point, that is that man is in no real position to judge God. I would think any of the body would see this clear enough.

In regard to your proposed phrase, "That would make God unjust...". It seems to me that this comes up in theological conversations in two ways.

(1) A non-believer using the Christian concept of God being pure/true justice to show there is no God.
(2) One believer using the Christian concept of God being pure/true justice to show another believer that a portion of their theology does not match the nature of God in which both believe.

The first (1), is making war against God. The second (2), if done with humility to God, is appropriate (IMO). The second in no way is a judgement of God, only a pronouncement that He is perfect justice. The second is more of a judgment of the portion of theology the first believer thinks is 'out of alignment' with the seconds believers theology. Basically the first believer is saying that (1) God is pure and true justice, (2) your theology would seem to paint God as if he is unjust, (C) therefore, your theology must be reevaluated because God is not unjust.

Now, this claim by the first Christian that one's theology paints God as unjust is by no means the final word. For the conclusion is based on interpretation and could be wrong from their end. It would be incumbent upon the first believer to show how the second believers theology is unjust. And if they can, reasonably, then as a believer, one must consider if one's theology is contrary to God's nature. If one concludes that one's theology is not contrary to God's nature. Then the argument fails to be a witness (as the first Christian should have intended it to be a witness).

Our Scriptures are filled with the concept that we should 'judge' teachings against God's word. (1 Thes 5:21 NKJV) "21 Test all things; hold fast what is good". So when a believer says, "The Scripture means this...". We are told, as those in the body, to test it against Scripture. To judge it, if you will, against Scripture. Again, this is not a judgment against God.


Seek God's truth as if it were hidden treasure

 

[BNR32FAN]

I just want to know one thing... Did God stand up to your scrutiny?
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My “scrutiny” has nothing to do with the discussion. The discussion is about the definition of the word “Just”. The scriptures use the word “just” to describe God’s character. Your theology teaches that God’s character is contradictory to that description.

 

[moonbeam]

We know what good and evil are, what justice and injustice are. If God were to directly will every instance of rape and torture and murder, for example. that would make Him unjust. Unless, of course, we think that it would be good for ourselves or loved ones to be raped and tortured and murdered. "Thank you God, that was great. Praise and glory to your mighty name!" With such a God there would be no reason to think that heaven would be any better than hell.

It never ceases to amaze me that there are people who believe they possess the capacity to be able to scrutinise Gods behaviour.

Where does this hubris spring from...
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[moonbeam]

Our Scriptures are filled with the concept that we should 'judge' teachings against God's word. (1 Thes 5:21 NKJV) "21 Test all things; hold fast what is good". So when a believer says, "The Scripture means this...". We are told, as those in the body, to test it against Scripture. To judge it, if you will, against Scripture. Again, this is not a judgment against God.

The scripture encourages our critical examination of ourselves.

Does it encourage the critical examination go God Himself?
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[moonbeam]

My “scrutiny” has nothing to do with the discussion. The discussion is about the definition of the word “Just”. The scriptures use the word “just” to describe God’s character. Your theology teaches that God’s character is contradictory to that description.

Give an example.
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[fhansen]

It never ceases to amaze me that there are people who believe they possess the capacity to be able to scrutinise Gods behaviour.

Where does this hubris spring from...
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Not hubri, just sanity, springing from the knowledge that God is good, and not irrational

 

[bling]

It never ceases to amaze me that there are people who believe they possess the capacity to be able to scrutinise Gods behaviour.

Where does this hubris spring from...
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God is totally consistent, His Love is perfect, and everything fits perfectly together. It is all very simple, if you do not come up with some "doctrine", which contradicts who God is. There is nothing to "question" about God so that only leaves questioning the doctrine.

 

[moonbeam]

Not hubri, just sanity, springing from the knowledge that God is good, and not irrational

Great than you agree with the OP... and will refrain yourself in future from saying the indefensibly vacuous "That would make God unjust"
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