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Who is a true Christian?

livinginthelight

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Exist said:
...

Then how do we tell the Holy Spirit from our emotions? I'm sure Hitler thought the Holy Spirit was telling him what to do when he killed all the Jews. And if the Holy Spirit is telling all the Christians what's true, why do they differ so much on beliefs?
God always wants us to depend more on him. Satan tries to drive us away from God and to depend on ourselves.

Here is a simple test to see if something is from God:

1) Does it exalt Jesus in the present and the future.
2) Is it consistent with the intentions and character of God as revealed in scripture?
3) Do other people who are filled with the holy Spirit confirm it?
4) Is there confirmation in objectively verifiable events or facts?

Jesus is not exalted when we kill. If a voice is telling you to kill Jews or any other group of people it is not from God. Therefore, Hitler was not doing God's will.

I could come to the same conclusion about George W. Bush. He says that God told him to invade Iraq, but it isn't consistent with God's character and it certainly does not exalt Jesus. Therefore, George Bush is listening to the wrong voice.

Jesus told us how to treat our enemies. He says that we are to love them. He told us how to treat our neighbor. He threw out the eye for an eye doctrine of retribution.

A couple of years ago a man near us went on a business trip. While he was away his house caught fire. His wife and nine children were all burned to death. He was a Christian. He did not blame God or anyone. He praised God for his goodness and for the wonderful family that God gave to him. This made the national news in Canada. What a powerful testimony!

A minister in Alberta's son was gunned down by another teen after Columbine. He forgave the young man publicly and urged for leniency from the law. Again it got front page exposure and made a powerful testimony for Christ.

These examples of how a Christian should respond to tragedy. We need to praise God in all circumstances. If you feel the desire for retribution, you are listening to the wrong voice.

It is difficult to forgive the events of 9/11, but that is what we were called to do. The Christian response would not be to invade rashly and embroil us in a war which was neither necessary, nor prudent.

Many conservative Christians including many prominent ones urged Bush to attack Iraq, Pat Buchanan anf Franklin Graham to name two. That is not a Christian response.

Now, thanks to them, Muslims and many non-Christians abroad think that Christians are blood thirsty, revengeful people. This is a black eye for all of us. It certainly did not help when Bush publicly announced that he was told by God.

What kind of God does such a thing? Not my God! Do you think that they are likely to be receptive to hearing the Gospel in light of what has happened?

This reminds me of a joke I once read. I'll post it at the bottom for you to think about. It isn't really funny, but speaks volumes about many people who call themselves Christian.

Being a Christian is about being in a relationship with God. You can be of any political stripe that you wish as long as you love the Lord and are in a committed relationship.But, as Christians we bear an awesome responsibility which we should never take lightly. Whatever we do reflects on Jesus and his people.

Joke:

[SIZE=-1]Two cars were waiting at a stoplight. The light turned green, but the man didn't notice it. A woman in the car behind him is watching traffic pass around them. The woman begins pounding on her steering wheel and yelling at the man to move. The man doesn't move. The woman is going ballistic inside her car, ranting and raving at the man, pounding on her steering wheel and dash. The light turns yellow and the woman begins to blow the car horn, flips him off, and screams profanity and curses at the man.
The man, looks up, sees the yellow light and accelerates through the intersection just as the light turns red. The woman is beside herself, screaming in frustration as she misses her chance to get through the intersection. As she is still in mid-rant she hears a tap on her window and looks up into the barrel of a gun held by a very serious looking policeman.
The policeman tells her to shut off her car while keeping both hands in sight. She complies, speechless at what is happening. After she shuts off the engine, the policeman orders her to exit her car with her hands up. She gets out of the car and he orders her to turn and place her hands on her car. She turns, places her hands on the car roof and quickly is cuffed and hustled into the patrol car. She is too bewildered by the chain of events to ask any questions and is driven to the police station where she is fingerprinted, photographed, searched, booked and placed in a cell.
After a couple of hours, a policeman approaches the cell and opens the door for her. She is escorted back to the booking desk where the original officer is waiting with her personal effects. He hands her the bag containing her things, and says, "I'm really sorry for this mistake. But you see, I pulled up behind your car while you were blowing your horn, flipping the guy off in front of you, and cussing a blue streak at him.
Then I noticed the: "Choose Life" license plate holder, the "What Would Jesus Do" bumper sticker, the "Follow Me to Sunday School" bumper sticker, and the chrome plated Christian fish emblem on the trunk. So, naturally . . . . . .I assumed you had stolen the car."


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Exist

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"You sound so much like me before I found Christ that I feel an overwhelming drive to do everything I can to reach you. I hope I do not offend you in any way by saying that."
Actually, for some reason, this is refreshing. What offends me is when robots try and duplicate their programming on me, and when they find it's a bit hard, they look for easier prey. It NEVER offends me when somebody really connects to me in a way, sees that I'm a human, and really has compassion for me (however misplaced I may believe it to be).

For some reason (and with very little evidence of this), you strike me as the latter.


"BTW, I have another book that you might really enjoy, Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. Don't worry about buying it, I've got it on electrons and will be happy to share it with you. Just let me know if you're interested."
Actually, because I'm in this kind of mood, would you be willing to discuss this book before I read it? Actually, if you want to discuss anything, I'm on MSN messenger at lost_in_thought7@hotmail.com

We can talk about it first, then if I'm interested, you could send it. Deal?
 
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Exist

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"As far as Jesus words go if we have faith in Him than we can expect what he has told us here. But He also tells us not to Test God.
In the Book of James he tells us that we should not expect anything from God if we truley are not confident in what we are asking for.

We need to truley believe in Him."

See, it has nothing to do with you testing God, it has to do with me testing you. According to your Bible, True Christians (tm) can drink lethal poison and live. If you can't do that, then I'm saying, according to the texts you live by, you're not doing something right.

Am I wrong in thinking this?
 
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Exist

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"A christian has nothing to do with political views or worldy things.

A Christian is a follower of Jesus Christ. We follow His commands and His ways. There are no good christians or bad christians. If you don't follow Christs commands and repent of your sins than you are not a Christian.
Its is the following of Christ, not what political grouping you are a part of.."

Wow, I think a whole lot of American Christians need to hear this. I think they got a memo saying otherwise.
 
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Exist

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"It is difficult to forgive the events of 9/11, but that is what we were called to do. The Christian response would not be to invade rashly and embroil us in a war which was neither necessary, nor prudent.

Many conservative Christians including many prominent ones urged Bush to attack Iraq, Pat Buchanan anf Franklin Graham to name two. That is not a Christian response."

See, this is where intpretation comes in. (by the way, I do think it's a black eye, but for all Americans, not just Christians)

But Jesus tells you what to do if somebody strikes your cheek: you turn to let them have the other. What if a grown man, a stranger, strikes your childs cheek? You forgive them, even though they're about to strike it again?

Where is the line drawn between giving out sit-by-and-do-nothing passes and standing up to defend you and yours?

Sounds like a good argument to me, but Paul says to not resist evil. So we are supposed to sit by and let people strike our children freely (the children who depend on us), and fly planes into our buildings. Sounds like a pretty crappy philosophy to live by, to me.
 
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Davis

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Exist said:
See, it has nothing to do with you testing God, it has to do with me testing you. According to your Bible, True Christians (tm) can drink lethal poison and live. If you can't do that, then I'm saying, according to the texts you live by, you're not doing something right.

Am I wrong in thinking this?

LOL Jesus did not tell us to go drink lethal poison. Thats testing God my friend. He never said to go do these things. Just because not everyone handles poisonous snakes doesn't mean that were not christian.

Look at Paul who was bitten by a viper on accident. He trusted in the Lord and did not die. But he wasn't out looking for it.

Trusting in Jesus does not make us superhuman. He tells us that the life of following Him is not an easy one. We as christians must not think that we are superhuman when it comes our pride.
 
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Exist

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"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

I haven't met a Christian yet who has drunk deadly poison and lived. That is a sign that will accompany those who believe, so apparently, I haven't met a Christian yet who has truly believed.

I hear all about people supposedly speaking in tongues, and placing hands on sick people and them being healed (just as I hear about Pagans and Muslims and Buddhists being able to do "supernatural things"), but when it comes down to deadly poison, no one wants to get near that. Why not?

Honestly, why not? I have a theory: because drinking deadly poison will kill you. You don't want to die.
 
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thepianist

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MemeBuster said:
Are liberal Christians who don't read the Bible literally true Christians or are the fundamentalists true Christians?

Can one accept ordination of women and still be true to the Christian doctrine?

Can one be for embryonic stem cell research or IVF and still be a Christian?

Does people who don't believe in historicity of genesis, Noah's flood, and exodus are true Christians?

Who decides these things? It seems to me that since the Bible is open to so many interpretations, there are no final authority to settle these things.


MB.

A true 'Christian' is a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as their own, personal Saviour, my friend. They realize that they can't be good enough - and we all miss the mark - to get into heaven without the forgiveness and salvation that ONLY comes through the Lord.

Reading the Bible won't get anybody into heaven - although it is something everyone should read. There is NO church membership that will get a person into heaven either - although we should go to church.

All that REALLY counts is having Jesus in your heart!!!
 
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AgnosticMike

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thepianist said:
Reading the Bible won't get anybody into heaven - although it is something everyone should read. There is NO church membership that will get a person into heaven either - although we should go to church.

All that REALLY counts is having Jesus in your heart!!!

So how are you supposed to know about Jesus if you don't read your Bible?
 
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israel13

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AgnosticMike said:
So how are you supposed to know about Jesus if you don't read your Bible?

Good point.

A Christian desires to know God intimately and understand His character. A Christian will naturally want to read the Bible.
 
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israel13

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MemeBuster said:
Are liberal Christians who don't read the Bible literally true Christians or are the fundamentalists true Christians?

Can one accept ordination of women and still be true to the Christian doctrine?

Can one be for embryonic stem cell research or IVF and still be a Christian?

Does people who don't believe in historicity of genesis, Noah's flood, and exodus are true Christians?

Who decides these things? It seems to me that since the Bible is open to so many interpretations, there are no final authority to settle these things.


MB.

A Christian is a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour, which means that he has recognized his sin, and that he will by judged by a perfectly good, loving, just, and righteous God for that sin, and that only the perfect righteousness of Jesus can save him from his just punishment.

Being a Christian DOES NOT mean being nice to people or animals. Jesus was not a hippie. Being a Christian does not mean accepting that "Jesus has a wonderful plan for your life." Jesus came to bring righteousness not happiness.

All of those issues you bring up is resolved for a Christian as he seeks to be of the same heart as God and not be led by his own corrupted human standards of right and wrong.

Remember, the Word of God says, "The heart is desperately wicked. It is deceitful above all things. Who can know it?"
 
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BillyWheaton

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israel13 said:
Remember, the Word of God says, "The heart is desperately wicked. It is deceitful above all things. Who can know it?"
a previous poster said all I need is Jesus in my heart, but you saw that I couldn't know it if I did!!! I'm sure there is a simple explanation. But, we all kinda know what you mean, right? billywheaton
 
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AgnosticMike

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israel13 said:
A Christian is a person who has accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Saviour, which means that he has recognized his sin, and that he will by judged by a perfectly good, loving, just, and righteous God for that sin, and that only the perfect righteousness of Jesus can save him from his just punishment.

Being a Christian DOES NOT mean being nice to people or animals. Jesus was not a hippie. Being a Christian does not mean accepting that "Jesus has a wonderful plan for your life." Jesus came to bring righteousness not happiness.

All of those issues you bring up is resolved for a Christian as he seeks to be of the same heart as God and not be led by his own corrupted human standards of right and wrong.

Remember, the Word of God says, "The heart is desperately wicked. It is deceitful above all things. Who can know it?"

It seems that the problem is that the recipe for being "saved" is very complicated. The forum states a person is a Christian if they accept the list of around 50 things in the Nicene creed. Then people use words like Lord and Saviour which are words that have a long list of criteria attached to them.

I asked a question in this forum about a lady who was baptised and accepted Jesus as her saviour, believed that Jesus was sent from God, but because she didn't fit some other criteria some said she wasn't really saved. Others said she was and then others said only God knows. What a fiasco!

Even if I did want to be "saved" I'm not sure I could ever get to the bottom of the deal.
 
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Nightfire

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AgnosticMike said:
It seems that the problem is that the recipe for being "saved" is very complicated. The forum states a person is a Christian if they accept the list of around 50 things in the Nicene creed. Then people use words like Lord and Saviour which are words that have a long list of criteria attached to them.

I asked a question in this forum about a lady who was baptised and accepted Jesus as her saviour, believed that Jesus was sent from God, but because she didn't fit some other criteria some said she wasn't really saved. Others said she was and then others said only God knows. What a fiasco!

Even if I did want to be "saved" I'm not sure I could ever get to the bottom of the deal.
AgnosticMike,

I believe the root of your problem is that you believe there IS a recipe for being saved. Don't you think if there ever were a people who had the opportunity to find out this recipe it would have been Israel, who had the opportunity to know God intimately? Yet when Jesus spoke to them it was exactly their recipe-making that He condemned...

The real question isn't WHAT is it that saves, but WHO it is that saves. God gave us the opportunity to know the answer through Christ, who declared that salvation is accessed through faith in God.

Anybody who wants to point out certain criteria that someone must live up to to be saved is committing the same fallacy. Even God's own laws to Israel weren't meant to save them, and those were the strictest criteria He ever enforced. It was primarily through a living relationship with God that they would come to know their salvation, and the laws were meant to point out when they strayed from this relationship - not to replace it. Christians aren't saved by adhering to the Nicene Creed any more than Jews were saved by adhering to the Ten Commandments. They missing word here is grace.

Jesus is the "bottom of the deal" - his love - and the kind of love He taught from the Hebrew scriptures. Everything else, like Rabbi Hillel said , "is commentary". Someone who believes in God will put his faith into practice, and whatever people might think about her thoughts, in the end it's her behaviour that will show whether she lived a God-approved life.

In the end, only God decides who is saved. The best we can do is find out what He bases His decision on, and the most trustworthy place to find this out is from His Son.
 
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Nightfire

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Exist said:
"And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

I haven't met a Christian yet who has drunk deadly poison and lived. That is a sign that will accompany those who believe, so apparently, I haven't met a Christian yet who has truly believed.

I hear all about people supposedly speaking in tongues, and placing hands on sick people and them being healed (just as I hear about Pagans and Muslims and Buddhists being able to do "supernatural things"), but when it comes down to deadly poison, no one wants to get near that. Why not?

Honestly, why not? I have a theory: because drinking deadly poison will kill you. You don't want to die.
Exist,

It's a common mistake to read Mark 16 out of context. Jesus was speaking specifically to his eleven disciples, rebuking them for their lack of fatih (v.14) and empowering them to carry out this important and specific commission. The evidence was for their eyes, and meant for the establishment of the church. All this is evident in verse 20:
Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.
Obviously the disciples had done their work, and the confirmed signs gave Christianity a foundation that allowed it to survive until now. Like Paul explains in 1 Cor. 3: 11: "But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ." We're not still laying the foundations of the first century. That would mean nothing happened since then and nothing was built on it.

The challenges that believers face today just doesn't include snakes and poison anymore, and miracles concerning them are more likely to give rise to strange ideas than to evoke faith in Christ. Even language barriers and demons have taken on different manifestations, prompting new responses, and sicknesses can be treated in more ways than the miraculous. God promised to provide, and He has indeed provided. The only problem is that people don't find divine provision, plain science, or even common sense, as entertaining as parlor tricks.
 
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AgnosticMike

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Nightfire said:
AgnosticMike,

I believe the root of your problem is that you believe there IS a recipe for being saved. Don't you think if there ever were a people who had the opportunity to find out this recipe it would have been Israel, who had the opportunity to know God intimately? Yet when Jesus spoke to them it was exactly their recipe-making that He condemned...

The real question isn't WHAT is it that saves, but WHO it is that saves. God gave us the opportunity to know the answer through Christ, who declared that salvation is accessed through faith in God.

Anybody who wants to point out certain criteria that someone must live up to to be saved is committing the same fallacy. Even God's own laws to Israel weren't meant to save them, and those were the strictest criteria He ever enforced. It was primarily through a living relationship with God that they would come to know their salvation, and the laws were meant to point out when they strayed from this relationship - not to replace it. Christians aren't saved by adhering to the Nicene Creed any more than Jews were saved by adhering to the Ten Commandments. They missing word here is grace.

Jesus is the "bottom of the deal" - his love - and the kind of love He taught from the Hebrew scriptures. Everything else, like Rabbi Hillel said , "is commentary". Someone who believes in God will put his faith into practice, and whatever people might think about her thoughts, in the end it's her behaviour that will show whether she lived a God-approved life.

In the end, only God decides who is saved. The best we can do is find out what He bases His decision on, and the most trustworthy place to find this out is from His Son.

So is this recipe explained in some sort of relationship with Christ? Any relationship has terms. I suppose those terms of the relationship are the recipe, in my words.

Or is it the behaviour or works that save? You seems to be saying stuff that I can't nail down into something concrete.
 
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Harlan Norris

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MemeBuster said:
Are liberal Christians who don't read the Bible literally true Christians or are the fundamentalists true Christians?

Can one accept ordination of women and still be true to the Christian doctrine?

Can one be for embryonic stem cell research or IVF and still be a Christian?

Does people who don't believe in historicity of genesis, Noah's flood, and exodus are true Christians?

Who decides these things? It seems to me that since the Bible is open to so many interpretations, there are no final authority to settle these things.


MB.
God knows who the true Christians are.God is the final authority in this matter.On judgement day we stand before God.We are judged one at a time.Our doctrins and dogmas will not save us.Only our faith can set us free.This is a matter for personal consideration,because we will be judged according to our works,by God,not by men.God is not a respector of persons.For me personally,I read my Bible.It's hard to imagine having any understanding of Gods word without reading Gods word.I try to live according to what the Bible instructs.How do I know that I'm correct?I don't.I often hear or read doctrins that conflict with my understanding.If I don't get insight from God that I'm wrong or that they are right,I stick to my own view.They will not stand with me on judgement day.I'll go alone,just as they will.
 
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