Who invented transubstantiation?

[abacabb3]

<< I was talking about how RCCs view transubstantiation in light of the eucharist's supposed ability to forgive venial sins.>>

Can you cite a RCC source for that view? I do not believe it is correct.

"1416 Communion with the Body and Blood of Christ increases the communicant's union with the Lord, forgives his venial sins, and preserves him from grave sins. Since receiving this sacrament strengthens the bonds of charity between the communicant and Christ, it also reinforces the unity of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ."

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=15509

It's in their catechism.

Faith forgives nothing.

God forgives sins.

It is by God's grace, through faith, not works wrought out of holiness of heart.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<<1416 Communion with the Body and Blood of Christ increases the communicant's union with the Lord, forgives his venial sins, and preserves him from grave sins. Since receiving this sacrament strengthens the bonds of charity between the communicant and Christ, it also reinforces the unity of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ."
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=15509
It's in their catechism.>>

Thank you.

Communion is preceded by the penitential rite, an act of confession. It is done according to 1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Without confession and repentance, there is no forgiveness in communion.

Penitential Rite
(http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/mass/penitentialrite.html)

We are human and we sin. To put ourselves in the proper condition for the celebration of the Mass it is desirable to confess our sins and pray for forgiveness. The following exchange between the celebrant and the parish is the essence of this rite. The parish congregation recites or answers with proclamations in bold print.

I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault
- we strike our breast -
in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.

Amen.



<<It is by God's grace, through faith, not works wrought out of holiness of heart.>>

Without God's grace, our faith and/or works would accomplish nothing. All, having sinned, deserve hell. It is only by God's mercy and love, for all mankind, that is; His grace, that we are not under judgment. "Mercy triumphs over judgment." (Jas 2:13)

 

[abacabb3]

COnfession forgives mortal sins, Eucharist forgives venial sins. The RCC differentiates between the two.

 

[tz620q]

"1416 Communion with the Body and Blood of Christ increases the communicant's union with the Lord, forgives his venial sins, and preserves him from grave sins. Since receiving this sacrament strengthens the bonds of charity between the communicant and Christ, it also reinforces the unity of the Church as the Mystical Body of Christ."

That is in the summary of that chapter. Here is the unpacked version of that paragraph with the cause of this forgiveness.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood." In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

 

[tz620q]

Communion is preceded by the penitential rite, an act of confession. It is done according to 1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." Without confession and repentance, there is no forgiveness in communion.

Penitential Rite

We are human and we sin. To put ourselves in the proper condition for the celebration of the Mass it is desirable to confess our sins and pray for forgiveness. The following exchange between the celebrant and the parish is the essence of this rite. The parish congregation recites or answers with proclamations in bold print.

I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have sinned through my own fault
- we strike our breast -
in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
and I ask blessed Mary, ever virgin, all the angels and saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.

May almighty God have mercy on us, forgive us our sins,
and bring us to everlasting life.

Amen.

You are right, nearly every mass has the Confiteor near the beginning where we ask God for forgiveness. It is interesting that this website has the old translation. About 4 years ago they retranslated the Latin (the official source) into English to bring better conformity between the English-speaking countries and with the Latin text. The new translation is this:

"I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
through my fault (strike breast), through my fault (strike breast),
through my most grievous fault (strike breast);
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God."

Do the Orthodox have a similar part of their liturgy, which is very beautiful by the way?

 

[abacabb3]

That is in the summary of that chapter. Here is the unpacked version of that paragraph with the cause of this forgiveness.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm

1365 Because it is the memorial of Christ's Passover, the Eucharist is also a sacrifice. The sacrificial character of the Eucharist is manifested in the very words of institution: "This is my body which is given for you" and "This cup which is poured out for you is the New Covenant in my blood." In the Eucharist Christ gives us the very body which he gave up for us on the cross, the very blood which he "poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

1366 The Eucharist is thus a sacrifice because it re-presents (makes present) the sacrifice of the cross, because it is its memorial and because it applies its fruit:
[Christ], our Lord and God, was once and for all to offer himself to God the Father by his death on the altar of the cross, to accomplish there an everlasting redemption. But because his priesthood was not to end with his death, at the Last Supper "on the night when he was betrayed," [he wanted] to leave to his beloved spouse the Church a visible sacrifice (as the nature of man demands) by which the bloody sacrifice which he was to accomplish once for all on the cross would be re-presented, its memory perpetuated until the end of the world, and its salutary power be applied to the forgiveness of the sins we daily commit.
1367 The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice: "The victim is one and the same: the same now offers through the ministry of priests, who then offered himself on the cross; only the manner of offering is different." "And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the Mass, the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner. . . this sacrifice is truly propitiatory."

I think we are going off on tangents. Let's put it simply. Would t be accurate to say that the sacrament of the Eucharist forgives venial sins and the sacrament of confession forgives mortal sins? This is not a gotcha question, I just want to lay down the groundwork before we move back onto the Eucharist.

 

[tz620q]

I think we are going off on tangents. Let's put it simply. Would t be accurate to say that the sacrament of the Eucharist forgives venial sins and the sacrament of confession forgives mortal sins? This is not a gotcha question, I just want to lay down the groundwork before we move back onto the Eucharist.

If I were teaching it to a young child, I might state it that way. But I would probably not confuse them by bringing up forgiveness of sins and the Eucharist. If I were teaching a teen, then I would set this Eucharistic forgiveness within the Catechism verses that I quoted before, to make sure that they understand that this forgiveness flows from the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist, not from the penitential rite.

Truly, I think you have to see Catholic liturgy as a whole and not try to subdivide it. It is formal and ritualized just so that it is consistent across nations and times. This allows it to be crafted like the making of fine furniture, so that all the parts add to the whole. A good liturgist will understand this and make sure that any optional pieces (mostly music) is consistent with the rest of the liturgy.

 

[abacabb3]

If I were teaching it to a young child, I might state it that way. But I would probably not confuse them by bringing up forgiveness of sins and the Eucharist. If I were teaching a teen, then I would set this Eucharistic forgiveness within the Catechism verses that I quoted before, to make sure that they understand that this forgiveness flows from the sacrificial nature of the Eucharist, not from the penitential rite.

Truly, I think you have to see Catholic liturgy as a whole and not try to subdivide it. It is formal and ritualized just so that it is consistent across nations and times. This allows it to be crafted like the making of fine furniture, so that all the parts add to the whole. A good liturgist will understand this and make sure that any optional pieces (mostly music) is consistent with the rest of the liturgy.

Well, I think in apologetics we get all complicated talking about penitential rites and such, because the real issue is can a Christian have sins forgiven without partaking in the Eucharist for a plethora of legitimate reasons. This is ultimately not an issue over the Real Presence, but it is one that deals with soteriology and it shows how vast the difference is between Catholicism and Protestantism.

So, I will give a reason right now why I cannot partake in the Roman Eucharist. It is made of wheat bread. I am allergic to bread. So, even if the species of the bread is Christ, the accidens are sufficient to make me sick. Now, if I were a devout Roman Catholic, this would bother me simply because of the teaching that I should partake in the sacrament as the means God has given me to absolve post-baptismal sins. It is better to live and pain and die young, and avoid undo time in purgatory.

Yet, I can even argue as a Catholic that I do not need to take part in the sacrament if I desire to take part. As Aquinas writes, "And it has been said above (Question 68, Article 2), that before receiving a sacrament, the reality of the sacrament can be had through the very desire of receiving the sacrament."

So, at its very core, the technical Catholic answer is in reality no different than the Protestant one. Your sins are forgiven by faith. If you flout God's commands and don't desire to partake in sacraments, then you don't really have faith at all. If your desire is reflective of a true faith, then this faith is the means in which one is given the grace of forgiveness by God.

Honestly, I find it unnecessarily confusing and I think it is deliberately so. Their reason for this hits THE VERY CORE of the Protestant-Catholic schism. Protestants believe we are justified by faith in Christ. We don't believe grace can be lost as long as one perseveres in the faith. The Catholic Church teaches, “Christ instituted the sacrament of Penance for all sinful members of his Church: above all for those who, since Baptism, have fallen into grave sin, and have thus lost their baptismal grace and wounded ecclesial communion. It is to them that the sacrament of Penance offers a new possibility to convert and to recover the grace of justification” (CCC 1446).

So, in reality, my faith is not good enough. My penance must not only be a broken and contrite heart, but it has to take the shape and the form of the choosing of the Catholic Church, because the Catholic CHurch can bind and loose.

WOuld the above be sufficiently accurate? If so, I will talk about the early church, penance, and transubstantiation, which is the topic of this thread.

 

[JustHisKid]

Well, I think in apologetics we get all complicated talking about penitential rites and such, because the real issue is can a Christian have sins forgiven without partaking in the Eucharist for a plethora of legitimate reasons.

I would be more concerned about the sin of partaking in the eucharist being forgiven.

 

[abacabb3]

I would be more concerned about the sin of partaking in the eucharist being forgiven.

There seems to be a lot of baseless Catholic bashing in this thread. What makes partaking in the eucharist sinful in your eyes?

Is it the belief that the bread and wine is really the flesh and blood of Christ? Most of the Church for history thinks that. That includes Catholics, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodoxy, Lutherans, Oriental Orthodox, Presbyterians...need I go on?

Is it the belief that the eucharist is a sacrifice? Again, most of the church teaches this too. One of the earliest Christian writings ever written, called the Didache, calls it a "sacrifice." Calling the Lord's Supper a memorial sacrifice is not heresy, this is how the early church understood it. What I am trying to find out from RCCs here is when the earliest claim is of the Eucharist being a "bloodless sacrifice," and how the "bloodless sacrifice" is one of the same as Christ's bloody sacrifice. RCCs claim that Christ is not sacrificed again and again, but that his sacrifice is unending. Based upon what? How can an unending, bloodless sacrifice be the same as the bloody, "finished" sacrifice? These are logical issues that we need the RCCs to respond to, though I am unsure you have given it such careful thought.

Is it the belief that partaking in the Eucharist forgives sins? Well, this is what we need to tease out here, because it appears that the RCCs on this thread here are saying that the Eucharist does not forgive sins. This appears to me to not be a straight forward presentation of what they really teach, hence the need to make sure everyone here defines terms instead of throwing blanket accusations and speaking in purposely confusing language.

So, let's define terms and err on the side of speaking very simply about our beliefs instead of throwing accusations and not cutting to the chase about what we believe.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

Do the Orthodox have a similar part of their liturgy, which is very beautiful by the way?

There is a series of prayers said before the elements are distributed, one of which is:
I believe and confess, Lord, that You are truly the Christ, the Son of the living God, who came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the first. I also believe that this is truly Your pure Body and that this is truly Your precious Blood. Therefore, I pray to You, have mercy upon me, and forgive my transgressions, voluntary and involuntary, in word and deed, known and unknown. And make me worthy without condemnation to partake of Your pure Mysteries for the forgiveness of sins and for life eternal. Amen.

The priest while communing says:
Priest: Behold, I approach Christ, our immortal King and God.

The precious and most holy Body of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ is given to me (Name) the Priest, for the forgiveness of my sins and eternal life.
(He then partakes of the sacred Bread. )
The precious and most holy Blood of our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ is given to me (Name) the priest, for the forgiveness of my sins and eternal life.
(He then drinks from the Chalice. )
(Afterwards, he wipes the Chalice, kisses it, and says) This has touched my lips, taking away my transgressions and cleansing my sins.

We also have the sacrament of confession which is more of a personalized proclamation of the forgiveness of sins, rather than a communal one in the Eucharist.

For communicants
(When administering Holy Communion, the priest says) The servant of God (Name) receives the Body and Blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

 

[fatherjimparker]

<< Let's put it simply. Would t be accurate to say that the sacrament of the Eucharist forgives venial sins and the sacrament of confession forgives mortal sins? >>

It is an over simplification.

Without repentance and confession, either generic and communal or specific and one-on-one, there is no forgiveness of sin in the Eucharist.

Paul tells us:

So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord
in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body
and blood of the Lord. Everyone ought to examine themselves
before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those
who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and
drink judgment on themselves. That is why many among you are
weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.
(1Co 11:27-30)

 

[abacabb3]

<< Let's put it simply. Would t be accurate to say that the sacrament of the Eucharist forgives venial sins and the sacrament of confession forgives mortal sins? >>

It is an over simplification.

Without repentance and confession, either generic and communal or specific and one-on-one, there is no forgiveness of sin in the Eucharist.

Is there forgiveness of venial sins apart from the Eucharist?

 

[fatherjimparker]

Is there forgiveness of venial sins apart from the Eucharist?

Sure. The thief on the cross was forgiven of all his sins; venial, mortal, intentional, unintentional, of commission and omission, everything.

 

[abacabb3]

Sure. The thief on the cross was forgiven of all his sins; venial, mortal, intentional, unintentional, of commission and omission, everything.

So, the purpose of the Eucharist is to proclaim Christ's death until He comes and not to forgive sins, right?

 

[ViaCrucis]

You are right, nearly every mass has the Confiteor near the beginning where we ask God for forgiveness. It is interesting that this website has the old translation. About 4 years ago they retranslated the Latin (the official source) into English to bring better conformity between the English-speaking countries and with the Latin text. The new translation is this:

"I confess to almighty God
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done,
and in what I have failed to do;
through my fault (strike breast), through my fault (strike breast),
through my most grievous fault (strike breast);
therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you, my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God."

Do the Orthodox have a similar part of their liturgy, which is very beautiful by the way?

This looks, in many ways, very similar to what we pray in the Penitential Rite as Lutherans:

"I confess to God Almighty, before the whole company of heaven, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned in thought, word, and deed; in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, by my fault; wherefore I pray God Almighty to have mercy on me, forgive me all my sins, and bring me to everlasting life. Amen."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ViaCrucis]

So, the purpose of the Eucharist is to proclaim Christ's death until He comes and not to forgive sins, right?

I'm not a Roman Catholic, but speaking as a Lutheran:

The Eucharist forgives sins because it proclaims Christ's death to us. Since it is the very body of Christ broken for us and the very blood of Christ shed for us it is that very thing wherein there is forgiveness of sin; namely in the death, the broken body and shed blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because the Eucharist brings to us the gifts of Christ's body and blood it delivers to us the promises found in Christ who died, has risen, is ascended, and will come again: namely forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[abacabb3]

I'm not a Roman Catholic, but speaking as a Lutheran:

The Eucharist forgives sins because it proclaims Christ's death to us. Since it is the very body of Christ broken for us and the very blood of Christ shed for us it is that very thing wherein there is forgiveness of sin; namely in the death, the broken body and shed blood, of our Lord Jesus Christ. Because the Eucharist brings to us the gifts of Christ's body and blood it delivers to us the promises found in Christ who died, has risen, is ascended, and will come again: namely forgiveness of sins and eternal life.

-CryptoLutheran

So, are sins forgiven anew every weak, or is the forgiveness of sins proclaimed every week in the Eucharist?

 

[fatherjimparker]

So, the purpose of the Eucharist is to proclaim Christ's death until He comes and not to forgive sins, right?

That is way too simplistic.

The Eucharist is the very manifestation of the fulfillment of the Church in all her power, sanctity and fullness. It is the reason why the Church assembles in the gathering together of heaven and earth and all creation in Christ. It constitutes the essence and purpose of the Church.

Understanding that the Church is the presence of the Kingdom of God on earth, the Eucharist is the sacrament of the coming of the risen Lord and of our meeting and communion with him "at his table in his kingdom."

The offering of the Eucharist, as the body and blood of Christ to God, includes the offering of all believers, who are in Christ, as our reasonable living sacrifice, having been deified in our flesh by the incarnation which deified all flesh. As members of his body, we are also offered to God (the church is Christ's "humanity") and all of creation is offered back to God.

From The Eucharist by Alexander Schemann, p.185:

The thanksgiving offered by the church...is a manifestation of man to himself, a manifestation of his essence, his place and calling in the light of the divine countenance and therefore an act that renews and recreates man. In thanksgiving we recognize and confess above all the divine source and calling of our life. The prayer of thanksgiving affirms that God brought us from non-being into being, which means that he created us as partakers of Being, i.e.; not just something that comes from him, but something permeated by his presence, light, wisdom, love - by what Orthodox theology, following St. Gregory Palamas, calls the divine energies, and which makes the world called to and capable of transformation into a "new heaven and a new earth" and the ruler of creation, man, called to and capable of theosis, "the partaking of the divine nature."

I recommend that you get a copy of Schmemann's Eucharist.

 

[abacabb3]

Wow, in that one post alone that is a heck of a lot of words to say nothing. What point did you actually make there. The Eucharist is the Church, the Church is the Eucharist?

Cut to the chase, man! If it is easier, then I am just going to go out and make the positive assertion that no, eating bread and drinking wine does not forgive sin, but believing in the God-Man whose flesh and blood constitute that bread and wine DOES forgive sins.

If anyone wants to debate the italics, then fine, bring up your evidence. But please, let's get to the point here!