Who has read the Book of Mormon?

[Jake255]

This seems loving, too.....oh......wait......???

Brigham Young said. . .

"But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong." (Brigham Young, "Journal of Discourses," Vol. 2, page 171. - 1855)
​

 

[LegacyJB]

Are you serious? An angel and a prophet are not the same thing, no matter how much you want to twist the Word of God and the meanings of words. Abraham was a man.

You are mistaken, mainstream Christianity does NOT teach that we will become angels - nowhere is it taught in the Bible. You should do some research on what mainstream Christianity actually teaches because it's obvious you are unaware.

I have faith in Christ - period. Adding additional books to God's Word is a grave danger and I will pray that God will open your eyes.

You don't even know what an angel is. There is more than one definition yet you're trying to force the word to be confined to one definition and that's it. These are the definitions of "angel":

-a messenger of God
-a supernatural being, either good or bad, to whom are attributed greater than human power, intelligence, etc.
-a guiding spirit or influence: one's good angel
-a conventionalized image of a white-robed figure in human form with wings and a halo
-a person regarded as being as beautiful, good, innocent, etc. as an angel: said esp. of women and children
-an English gold coin, last issued in 1634, stamped with an image of the archangel Michael and the dragon
-a supporter who provides money, as for producing a play
-a radar echo from something other than an aircraft, as from birds or rain

Was Abraham a messenger of God or not? If he wasn't an angel he wasn't a prophet going by the first definition of "angel". If he wasn't a prophet then a lot of the Bible is blatantly wrong.

No, I'm pretty right on this one too. Here are the verses Christians use:
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Do I really have to give you a list of arguments critics use? Do you not know what your peers say? I've heard nearly all of the arguments. When I was on the mission I was impressed to hear arguments that weren't parroted. I'm well-versed in what traditional/mainstream (if you notice I refer to mainstream as traditional and not biblical) Christianity. I've even had to explain the trinity theory to trinitarians because I get multiple verses of this theory from people who profess to believe in it.

If you have faith in God why do you require evidence? It seems like you have more trust in evidence than you do in God.

As if I haven't heard that one before. Where is the danger of God giving more of His word? Is He powerless to do so? Does He not love us anymore? Do we not need Him anymore? My eyes are open to God and the Lamb of God, He who is Jesus Christ. The gospel has been restored. The Book of Mormon is true. If the Book of Mormon weren't true it would have died off long ago.

Like I said before, do you want me to list of the criticisms your peers give since you don't know what they are?

 

[LegacyJB]

It is telling that Joseph Smith claims all other churches are false and the members of such are going to hell if they don't convert to Mormonism.

So, no, Mormons do not see all believers as brothers and sisters.

A critic of the church trying to tell us what we supposedly believe is like a cow trying to say meow.

 

[Jake255]

Doctrine and Covenants 76:71Â[bless and do not curse]

the 3 main degrees of glory. Hell is spoken of as spirit prison taught by Peter until the last resurrection when they can be resurrected to the telestial glory.

That is not what Peter taught - at all. The NT teaches about 'perish' and hell is in no way defined as 'glory'. Basically, telestial glory is where we live now - on the earth -according to Mormons.

It is in direct conflict with what the Bible actually teaches, the D/C adds to what was already established in the Bible, regarding hell. Mormons have conveniently left out the word 'perish', 'hell', 'eternal torment'.

You need to define believer so we know what you mean?

 

[LegacyJB]

This seems loving, too.....oh......wait......???

Brigham Young said. . .

"But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong." (Brigham Young, "Journal of Discourses," Vol. 2, page 171. - 1855)
​

Ok. Good job. You can quote. So can we. Heck, so can a 5 year old. All other churches do teach of Christ but because they do not have the fullness of the gospel they are still wrong. I've read the creeds and they're very...how can I put this...poorly written. They are not authoritative.

 

[drstevej]

When I was on the mission I was impressed to hear arguments that weren't parroted. I'm well-versed in what traditional/mainstream (if you notice I refer to mainstream as traditional and not biblical) Christianity. I've even had to explain the trinity theory to trinitarians because I get multiple verses of this theory from people who profess to believe in it.

Come by my house sometime. The last two teenage elders, after a two hour discussion at my dining room table, told me that I know more about Mormonism than most folks in their church.

 

[Jake255]

Ok. Good job. You can quote. So can we. Heck, so can a 5 year old. All other churches do teach of Christ but because they do not have the fullness of the gospel they are still wrong. I've read the creeds and they're very...how can I put this...poorly written. They are not authoritative.

Do you have anything useful to add to the conversation?

or not.....

 

[RevelationTestament]

The words of the First Vision were to Joseph in a solitary setting.

How is that reproving?

Is ... turning people black to keep His white and "delightsome" folks from being enticed ... reproving love to those who were re-pigmented?

-- 2 Nephi 5:21

that is an obvious and horribly repeated tactic of yours to change the subject.
I've shown repeatedly it is not talking about physical skin color - no more so than being made "white" in Daniel or "black skin" in Job, etc.

 

[Jake255]

You don't even know what an angel is. There is more than one definition yet you're trying to force the word to be confined to one definition and that's it. These are the definitions of "angel":

-a messenger of God
-a supernatural being, either good or bad, to whom are attributed greater than human power, intelligence, etc.
-a guiding spirit or influence: one's good angel
-a conventionalized image of a white-robed figure in human form with wings and a halo
-a person regarded as being as beautiful, good, innocent, etc. as an angel: said esp. of women and children
-an English gold coin, last issued in 1634, stamped with an image of the archangel Michael and the dragon
-a supporter who provides money, as for producing a play
-a radar echo from something other than an aircraft, as from birds or rain

Was Abraham a messenger of God or not? If he wasn't an angel he wasn't a prophet going by the first definition of "angel". If he wasn't a prophet then a lot of the Bible is blatantly wrong.

No, I'm pretty right on this one too. Here are the verses Christians use:
Mark 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.

Do I really have to give you a list of arguments critics use? Do you not know what your peers say? I've heard nearly all of the arguments. When I was on the mission I was impressed to hear arguments that weren't parroted. I'm well-versed in what traditional/mainstream (if you notice I refer to mainstream as traditional and not biblical) Christianity. I've even had to explain the trinity theory to trinitarians because I get multiple verses of this theory from people who profess to believe in it.

If you have faith in God why do you require evidence? It seems like you have more trust in evidence than you do in God.

As if I haven't heard that one before. Where is the danger of God giving more of His word? Is He powerless to do so? Does He not love us anymore? Do we not need Him anymore? My eyes are open to God and the Lamb of God, He who is Jesus Christ. The gospel has been restored. The Book of Mormon is true. If the Book of Mormon weren't true it would have died off long ago.

Like I said before, do you want me to list of the criticisms your peers give since you don't know what they are?

you will need to provide resources and quotes of mainstream Christianity believing we will become angels.

I'm waiting......

 

[LegacyJB]

There are no critics when one is exposing a cult.

It seems like you don't know the definitions of many words. A cult is any religious group that follows a person. Doesn't mainstream profess to follow Jesus Christ? He is still a person although Son of God. In that respect all religions are cults. In the insulting way unChrist-like people such as yourself mean the word, we're not a cult. You have gone on saying you know what a Christian is and isn't, it's blasphemous to do certain things, believe certain things, etc. All of that and yet here you are not even showing an ounce of desire to be Christlike toward others. You love putting others down more than you love the Savior. When you put others in front of Him you reap spiritual consequences. From what I've seen from you I have all the reason to question your faith in and love for God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[RevelationTestament]

That is not what Peter taught - at all. The NT teaches about 'perish' and hell is in no way defined as 'glory'. Basically, telestial glory is where we live now - on the earth -according to Mormons.

It is in direct conflict with what the Bible actually teaches, the D/C adds to what was already established in the Bible, regarding hell. Mormons have conveniently left out the word 'perish', 'hell', 'eternal torment'.

You need to define believer so we know what you mean?

You obviously need to brush up on Peter and D & C before "teaching" what you think we believe.
Peter did teach of spirit prison and that Christ went to teach the spirits of the dead who could live godly in 1 Peter 3 & 4.

18 For Christ also hath once asuffered for sins, the just for the bunjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to cdeath in the flesh, but quickened by the dSpirit:

19 By which also he went and apreached unto the bspirits in cprison;

20 aWhich sometime were bdisobedient, when once the clongsuffering of God waited in the days of dNoah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were esaved by fwater.

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to ajudge the bquick and the dead.

6 aFor for this cause was the bgospel cpreached also to them that are ddead, that they might be ejudged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Jesus too: John 5:25

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

D & C does not say hell is glory. It says those who do wickedly will be thrust down to hell until the last resurrection when they can be resurrected to the telestial glory. In my book that is being saved.

 

[RevelationTestament]

you will need to provide resources and quotes of mainstream Christianity believing we will become angels.

I'm waiting......

We would wait a long time indeed since mainstream christianity doesn't follow the Bible.
Daniel: "the man Gabriel."
Rev: "according to the measure of a man, that is the angel."
etc.

 

[Ran77]

A critic of the church trying to tell us what we supposedly believe is like a cow trying to say meow.

You got that right.

 

[Jake255]

We would wait a long time indeed since mainstream christianity doesn't follow the Bible.
Daniel: "the man Gabriel."
Rev: "according to the measure of a man, that is the angel."
etc.

Way to take scripture WAY out of context.

....but that's what cults do.....

 

[southcountry]

The problem is, its not what is there, its what is NOT there. I havent read the whole book, but from what I did read,I found no mention of some key elements the bible holds.

Question 1. is there a lake of glass mentioned there? Does the BoM describe its location?

Question 2. Is there a description of Gods throne?

Question 3. Are there any details of the anti-christ?

These are very important subjects to me, as the bible contains this information, and I believe anything which purports to be an extension of the bible should address these issues in some manner as the bible does in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation.

The bible is actually a witness of creation from beginning to end. Does the BoM contain information to this effect?

 

[drstevej]

A critic of the church trying to tell us what we supposedly believe is like a cow trying to say meow.

Can you explain the point here? Only Mormons know what Mormon's believe?

 

[Moodshadow]

Hi, Moodshadow
Yes, the church has a cloroxed version of history. All churches do. They don't talk about the sins of their founders, etc. You are correct about this.
That doesn't mean that all the stuff everyone else says is true either. And this.
What is "real" LDS history? That proposed by the Tanners? I have read only enough of the Tanners' stuff to know that it is pretty rabid. In my research I tried very hard to avoid rabid material, coming from both perspectives. It was my objective to get unbiased fact it if was available at all.

Maybe you believe the "Spalding Manuscript" fiction? I took a good look at that one because it was a major reason my dad left I think. Funny how everyone every place he went to calls him "old man Spalding" unless he referred to himself that way....or maybe that whole story is made up by one author? I wouldn't know; I never got into Spalding at all.

Do you honestly believe an uneducated farm boy could write the Book of Mormon complete with the many chiasmi like the Bible has? Chiasmi show a very intentional underlying writing style that has to be carefully planned, and weren't even recognized in scriptures by American circles until after the time Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.
Joseph Smith also got 2 unknown places in Saudi Arabia correct in the Book of Mormon - the only perennial stream[river Laman] to the ocean for hundreds of miles in "the valley of Lemuel" and Nahom, a semitically correct spelling of an actual small village in Arabia.

Perhaps the spirit knows more than man....

I used that line about the uneducated farm boy so many times myself when I was a member. Do I believe he was capable of those things? Of course - he did them, didn't he? He was also capable of deceiving people on a rather constant basis, including his own ever-faithful wife, right under the sanctity of their own roof. The regular posters here are undoubtedly ho-humming as they read this because they've heard it all before, so I'm not pursuing it further as a courtesy to them. If you care, let me know and perhaps we can do it privately.

What I concluded about Joseph Smith, after all the dust settled, is that he was a charming, cunning, charismatic fraud. Now please bear in mind that that is an opinion, and I'm stating it very matter-of-factly, not in anger, not in a vitriolic manner or in any attempt to persuade anyone here to believe one way or another - and therefore it is unworthy of any childish, hasty report to the moderators. You asked, I responded - and yes, the Spirit knows better than any man.

 

[LegacyJB]

You got that right.

I've decided I'll use what I said about the cow and meow when people give their version of what we believe. It's starting to grow on me.

 

[LegacyJB]

Way to take scripture WAY out of context.

....but that's what cults do.....

And "you took that out of context" is what critics have a habit of saying. You just can't stand the thought that a Mormon just might know the Bible. I certainly know it. Two types of devout Mormons you never try to debate scripture with: a Utah Mormon and a Bible-belt Mormon. I live in the Bible-belt and we know the Bible quite well.

 

[LegacyJB]

The problem is, its not what is there, its what is NOT there. I havent read the whole book, but from what I did read,I found no mention of some key elements the bible holds.

Question 1. is there a lake of glass mentioned there? Does the BoM describe its location?

Question 2. Is there a description of Gods throne?

Question 3. Are there any details of the anti-christ?

These are very important subjects to me, as the bible contains this information, and I believe anything which purports to be an extension of the bible should address these issues in some manner as the bible does in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Daniel, and Revelation.

The bible is actually a witness of creation from beginning to end. Does the BoM contain information to this effect?

The Bible doesn't say how all of the martyred apostles were killed. Wouldn't this be important? I mean hey, they're the ancient Apostles. Jesus told Peter, James, and John to declare what they saw at the mount where Moses and Elias were after He was resurrected and we don't have any record of that. Seriously, no record of something Jesus directly commanded them to do. Is that not important?

Because you can't find anything wrong with the verses I posted from the Book of Mormon you resort to what you think isn't in the book. Question 1: not important because it has nothing to do with salvation. Question 2: doesn't have an exact description but Lehi saw the throne. Question 3: please read the Book of Mormon. It's there.

You mentioned Revelation. In the Book of Mormon there are chapters consisting of Nephi conversing with an angel who tells Nephi of things to come. Toward the end it states the angel showed Nephi many other things but he was forbidden to write them because the angel would later reveal those forbidden things to John and John would write them. The visions in Revelation were also seen by Nephi. This means anything John saw, Nephi saw. After all, it was the same angel.