Who has read the Book of Mormon?

[Norah63]

I have read it. Good message.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I believed with all my heart that I learned of it's [sic] truthfulness from the Holy Ghost - believed it for 39 years, in fact. Talked the talk, walked the walk, made and lived the covenants and taught the doctrine to countless people during those years, including my own seven children. Then I quite accidentally happened across real LDS history - as opposed to the Cloroxed versions you see in LDS-authorized publications. It nearly killed me - for a while I actually prayed that it would! - but ultimately I emerged victorious instead. Now I believe the Book of Mormon to be a work of fiction - the product of the very fertile imagination of Joseph Smith, Jr.

Hi, Moodshadow
Yes, the church has a cloroxed version of history. All churches do. They don't talk about the sins of their founders, etc.
That doesn't mean that all the stuff everyone else says is true either. What is "real" LDS history? That proposed by the Tanners?
Yeah, I know there is a lot of stuff out there. I've read a lot of it.
I could believe all the stuff put out by the Tanners - that Joseph Smith was a womanizer who wanted to bed every woman who would, etc. Problem is if this is so how come the DNA evidence shows that the descendants of the women they said he supposedly took to bed are not descended from Joseph Smith?

Maybe you believe the "Spalding Manuscript" fiction? I took a good look at that one because it was a major reason my dad left I think. Funny how everyone every place he went to calls him "old man Spalding" unless he referred to himself that way....or maybe that whole story is made up by one author?

Do you honestly believe an uneducated farm boy could write the Book of Mormon complete with the many chiasmi like the Bible has? Chiasmi show a very intentional underlying writing style that has to be carefully planned, and weren't even recognized in scriptures by American circles until after the time Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon.
Joseph Smith also got 2 unknown places in Saudi Arabia correct in the Book of Mormon - the only perennial stream[river Laman] to the ocean for hundreds of miles in "the valley of Lemuel" and Nahom, a semitically correct spelling of an actual small village in Arabia.

Perhaps the spirit knows more than man....

 

[Phantasman]

I have read much, but not all, of it. As also the Qu'ran. Same with D&C and Pearl. This was back in 75 when I lived in Utah.

I felt I was stopped for a reason, one I can better identify now. I neither hold nothing against Mormons nor follow them. They are on a path as I am on a path. I see their path, yet feel I am told to let them travel it in peace, as in some ways we differ in thought, we are used by the Father for his glory in some way that compliments each other.

It's a strange feeling, kind of like in "Knowledge", the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing.

 

[RevelationTestament]

I posted to show LDS are inconsistent.

And here is an extra biblical creed for you to ponder:

Articles of Faith | Mormon.org

I happen to believe those words, thanks for the link....

 

[RevelationTestament]

I have read much, but not all, of it. As also the Qu'ran. Same with D&C and Pearl. This was back in 75 when I lived in Utah.

I felt I was stopped for a reason, one I can better identify now. I neither hold nothing against Mormons nor follow them. They are on a path as I am on a path. I see their path, yet feel I am told to let them travel it in peace, as in some ways we differ in thought, we are used by the Father for his glory in some way that compliments each other.

It's a strange feeling, kind of like in "Knowledge", the enemy of my enemy is my friend kind of thing.

Yes, all Christians are brothers even if their churches don't teach all the commandments or the same principles. They most all teach Christ is our Savior

 

[drstevej]

Yes, all Christians are brothers even if their churches don't teach all the commandments or the same principles. They most all teach Christ is our Savior

That certainly is not consistent with the First Vision of Mormonism.

 

[drstevej]

I happen to believe those words, thanks for the link....

It is an extra-biblical Creed, is it not?

 

[Norah63]

There is always much said about the book of revelations as the last in the new testament.
I also find the last chapter in the book of Mormon very telling. Moroni 10. Many point to verses 5 and 6 and even 7. The next verses from 8 on, not as much talked about.
Is it because all of those who have this faith are to be moving in these gifts?
When did most churches exchange the gifts from God for a social gospel that works of man may accomplish. Not that those are not helpful, just not the gifts that a Christian should be moving in. Religion yes, it is perfect if it cares for the widow and the fatherless.
Just my humble opinion that everyone who reads the book of Mormon should read that last chapter every day.

 

[RevelationTestament]

That certainly is not consistent with the First Vision of Mormonism.

If you are talking about the vision of Joseph Smith in which he was told "all their creeds are an abomination"- why yes it is. It does not mean they are an abomination. It means they are being led astray by words that confound the nature of God, and maybe other things as well, and that they need to come out of these false principles in order to truly follow Christ.
It doesn't damn them for trying or loving their fellow man.

 

[Jake255]

If you are talking about the vision of Joseph Smith in which he was told "all their creeds are an abomination"- why yes it is. It does not mean they are an abomination. It means they are being led astray by words that confound the nature of God, and maybe other things as well, and that they need to come out of these false principles in order to truly follow Christ.
It doesn't damn them for trying or loving their fellow man.

It is telling that Joseph Smith claims all other churches are false and the members of such are going to hell if they don't convert to Mormonism.

So, no, Mormons do not see all believers as brothers and sisters.

 

[Phantasman]

It is telling that Joseph Smith claims all other churches are false and the members of such are going to hell if they don't convert to Mormonism.

So, no, Mormons do not see all believers as brothers and sisters.

I don't recall JS saying anything about who was going to hell. It was a matter of people being blinded by the actions of men (which I can agree with). He was merely another man who believed the church was on the wrong track due to the Nicene Creed.

 

[drstevej]

If you are talking about the vision of Joseph Smith in which he was told "all their creeds are an abomination"- why yes it is. It does not mean they are an abomination. It means they are being led astray by words that confound the nature of God, and maybe other things as well, and that they need to come out of these false principles in order to truly follow Christ.
It doesn't damn them for trying or loving their fellow man.

This loving part?

19 that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them.


Joseph Smith—History 1:15-20 

 

[Jake255]

I don't recall JS saying anything about who was going to hell. It was a matter of people being blinded by the actions of men (which I can agree with). He was merely another man who believed the church was on the wrong track due to the Nicene Creed.

These are statements JS made, please notice the bolded:

(Regarding Joseph Smith's alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) . . .) "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).
​

"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270.)
​

(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. . .)
First -- "Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third — "Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119.)
​

 

[RevelationTestament]

It is telling that Joseph Smith claims all other churches are false and the members of such are going to hell if they don't convert to Mormonism.

So, no, Mormons do not see all believers as brothers and sisters.

That is plain false. Joseph Smith, the Bible and D & C teach that virtually all men will be saved - just to different degrees of glory.

"In my Father's house are many mansions. I would not say it if it were not so. I go and prepare a place for you."

22 For as in aAdam all bdie, even so in cChrist shall all be made dalive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the bfirstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his ccoming.

everyone shall be rewarded "according to their works."

 

[Jake255]

JS's belief was the world was in darkness before the Book of Mormon, there was no truth to be found. Only when the book of mormon was revealed and translated was it possible to know the truth, because the only place you could find the truth was in the book of mormon - if you don't believe in this book - then you remain in darkness and are lost.

"Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness," (Doctrines of Salvation, page 266).

 

[drstevej]

I don't recall JS saying anything about who was going to hell. It was a matter of people being blinded by the actions of men (which I can agree with). He was merely another man who believed the church was on the wrong track due to the Nicene Creed.

Not an option. He claimed gold plates from God translated by a peep stone in his hat. He presented a new priesthood, new revelation, a new gospel and new sacraments.

Brigham Young made the following statement:

Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me.

I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven.

Many will exclaim—"Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!" But it is true.

Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p.282-91

 

[Jake255]

That is plain false. Joseph Smith, the Bible and D & C teach that virtually all men will be saved just to different degrees of glory.

"In my Father's house are many mansions. I would not say it if it were not so. I go and prepare a place for you."

Prove it.

Show us where in D&C and pearl of great price where it says all believers will be saved - outside of the Mormon religion.

Show us where Joseph Smith said what you have stated.

All you have done is quoted the Bible - of course, that's what we believe, but it is not what JS believed.

 

[RevelationTestament]

This loving part?

It's called reproving - something the Lord is allowed to do.
Man is commanded to love - reproving is a last option.
I often reprove my kids because I love them....

 

[drstevej]

It's called reproving - something the Lord is allowed to do.
Man is commanded to love - reproving is a last option.
I often reprove my kids because I love them....

The words of the First Vision were to Joseph in a solitary setting.

How is that reproving?

Is ... turning people black to keep His white and "delightsome" folks from being enticed ... reproving love to those who were re-pigmented?

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

-- 2 Nephi 5:21

 

[RevelationTestament]

Prove it.

Show us where in D&C and pearl of great price where it says all believers will be saved - outside of the Mormon religion.

Show us where Joseph Smith said what you have stated.

All you have done is quoted the Bible - of course, that's what we believe, but it is not what JS believed.

Doctrine and Covenants 76:71 

the 3 main degrees of glory. Hell is spoken of as spirit prison taught by Peter until the last resurrection when they can be resurrected to the telestial glory.