Who has read the Book of Mormon?

[isleof]

I have to be honest, I read the very start of it.

It said something like, "I Joseph Smith have writen this according to myself". I lost interest immediately.

 

[Tony Kara]

Quite simply the Bible has never been translated 100% correctly. The words from the original writers, the prophets and apostles, are true, but translations have been solely of man's knowledge. To say the Bible is translated 100% correctly is to not understand the basics of translation in general. Not everything translates over into another language perfectly. Have you noticed the italicized words in the Bible? When the men who used the Greek and Hebrew manuscripts to translate they were fully aware that not everything would translate in a way where it would make sense. These scholars had to make best guesses according to what they thought would make sense.

In the popular verse "God is a spirit," the "is" is in italics. This is because the wore was inserted by the translator. It originally said "God spirit". The a isn't there because the Greek language doesn't have the indefinite article of "a".

In the old testament there is a verse which says "suffer not a witch to live." Witch wasn't in the manuscript. When the KJV was made these scholars believed in burning those who were thought to be witches. Rather than witch, scholars today universally agree that the word "murderer" is the correct translation.

These are very very few examples. Those who oppose the idea of the Bible not being translated correctly often refer to the dead sea scrolls for authenticity of the Bible. These are not the very original manuscripts. We have copies of copies of copies but we don't have the original writings of the prophets themselves.

Here's another that makes for a good discussion: do you believe an evil spirit comes from God?

You speak of original manuscripts. So,where are the original manuscripts of the BoM? How.do you verify the authenticity of the BoM, when the BoM itself has so many changes from the first edition to the current? Don't forget that Mr. Smith declared that it was translated .by the power of God. Please keep in mind that Mr Smith had access.to the printers pre publication proofs (say that 10 times fast), and that he approved and
endorsed the publication that he claimed authorship of.
With that in mind, Why do you hold the Bible.to higher.standard of authenticity than the BoM?.

 

[Tony Kara]

I see you are one of those who do not understand what it means for there to be a "reformed Egyptian." What is that exactly? Good question. Let's answer that. What is a reformed anything? To be reformed is to be changed or modified. In the U.S. we speak a modified form of English which can also be called reformed English. The way we write it is also modified. The same applies to the ancient text that was found upon the Golden Plates. The text was simply a modified form of Egyptian. For anyone to say a reformed Egyptian language doesn't exist is to show a lack of not necessarily wisdom but knowledge. Every language has been reformed.

Do the claims made in 1 Samuel match up with anything else in the Bible that talks about which spirits come from whom? Will God give anyone an evil spirit? Certainly not; such action is not of God. Our Father never gives us anything evil. If He would, He would cease to be God. God does punish but He does not distribute that which is evil.

What was any decent Jew doing studying a "pagan" language? you know.as.well as I do,.that that sort of stuff just didn't happen if you didn't want to get stoned with stones.

Perhaps if you spent more time.reading the Bible, rather than those 3 unbiblical.works, you would.be familiar with the 22nd chapter of the First Book OF Kings.

 

[LegacyJB]

You speak of original manuscripts. So,where are the original manuscripts of the BoM? How.do you verify the authenticity of the BoM, when the BoM itself has so many changes from the first edition to the current? Don't forget that Mr. Smith declared that it was translated .by the power of God. Please keep in mind that Mr Smith had access.to the printers pre publication proofs (say that 10 times fast), and that he approved and
endorsed the publication that he claimed authorship of.
With that in mind, Why do you hold the Bible.to higher.standard of authenticity than the BoM?.

Anyone who knows the history of the church knows the plates were taken back by the angel Moroni. For they are not needed. It isn't about physical things, it's about faith. Even if we had zero evidence for the Bible I would still believe in it. Would you?

How does one verify the Book of Mormon? The only way it can be done, by reading it with an open heart and praying to God the Father, in the name of Christ, and ask if it I true. This must be done with a sincere heart and without hypocrisy. I have asked God if it is true and He said told me it is. Answers from God always trump everything else.

I don't hold it to a higher standard of authenticity. Like I just said, I couldn't care less about the evidences for the Bible. Sure there are many but even if there was none I can safely say I'd still believe it. How about you?

 

[LegacyJB]

What was any decent Jew doing studying a "pagan" language? you know.as.well as I do,.that that sort of stuff just didn't happen if you didn't want to get stoned with stones.

Perhaps if you spent more time.reading the Bible, rather than those 3 unbiblical.works, you would.be familiar with the 22nd chapter of the First Book OF Kings.

I do spend much time with the Bible just as I do with the others books of scripture. I always wonder why so many people act like we don't know or even read the Bible. Studies and surveys have shown that Latter-Day saints are the most knowledgeable people when it comes to the Bible.

Do you not remember the Jews were subjected to the Egyptians in slavery for many years? Do you believe the Egyptians did not impose their language upon the Jews? Jewish scribes were not limited to one language.

 

[Tony Kara]

Anyone who knows the history of the church knows the plates were taken back by the angel Moroni. For they are not needed. It isn't about physical things, it's about faith. Even if we had zero evidence for the Bible I would still believe in it. Would you?

How does one verify the Book of Mormon? The only way it can be done, by reading it with an open heart and praying to God the Father, in the name of Christ, and ask if it I true. This must be done with a sincere heart and without hypocrisy. I have asked God if it is true and He said told me it is. Answers from God always trump everything else.

I don't hold it to a higher standard of authenticity. Like I just said, I couldn't care less about the evidences for the Bible. Sure there are many but even if there was none I can safely say I'd still believe it. How about you?

Like I.originally.said,.the missionaries decided.to end our ongoing.discussion when I asked.them to.read. the.Bible.with an open heart, and ask God of it.were true, the same."test" you just supplied.for.the BoM.
You were the one.who bought original.manuscripts into this.conversation. You used the lack of.original.manuscripts as.evidence.why the Bible.is.not.to.be fully trusted. You also appear.to have no problem with the lack of original manuscripts.for.the.BoM.
You also say that if there were.no evidences.for.the Bible, you "...can safely say I'd still believe.it...", yet you argue against 1st Samuel 16.being.believable.

How are you not using.a.double.standard here?

 

[LegacyJB]

Like I.originally.said,.the missionaries decided.to end our ongoing.discussion when I asked.them to.read. the.Bible.with an open heart, and ask God of it.were true, the same."test" you just supplied.for.the BoM.
You were the one.who bought original.manuscripts into this.conversation. You used the lack of.original.manuscripts as.evidence.why the Bible.is.not.to.be fully trusted. You also appear.to have no problem with the lack of original manuscripts.for.the.BoM.
You also say that if there were.no evidences.for.the Bible, you "...can safely say I'd still believe.it...", yet you argue against 1st Samuel 16.being.believable.

How are you not using.a.double.standard here?

While I did say we don't have original manuscripts for the Bible, I did not say the Bible can't be trusted. It is the translation of man we need to watch out for.

Yes, I do say I'd believe in the Bible even without evidence. I would remain true to my belief that things weren't translated perfectly but I would trust the Bible as a whole and still accept it as the word of God.

I believe the Book of Mormon and Bible are true. The golden plates were returned to Moroni and we don't have the original manuscripts for the Bible. The prophets of the Book of Mormon and Bible were each inspired by the Holy Ghost about what to write. Their words are true. The translation of the Book of Mormon was done directly by revelation from God while translations of the Bible have been done by knowledge according to man.

Nothing changes the fact that God has told me the Book of Mormon is true.

 

[Tony Kara]

While I did say we don't have original manuscripts for the Bible, I did not say the Bible can't be trusted. It is the translation of man we need to watch out for.

Yes, I do say I'd believe in the Bible even without evidence. I would remain true to my belief that things weren't translated perfectly but I would trust the Bible as a whole and still accept it as the word of God.

I believe the Book of Mormon and Bible are true. The golden plates were returned to Moroni and we don't have the original manuscripts for the Bible. The prophets of the Book of Mormon and Bible were each inspired by the Holy Ghost about what to write. Their words are true. The translation of the Book of Mormon was done directly by revelation from God while translations of the Bible have been done by knowledge according to man.

Nothing changes the fact that God has told me the Book of Mormon is true.

Do you fully trust the Bible with the same amount of trust you give the BoM?

I notice.that you did not respond to my comments about Mr. Smith's claims of the authenticity of translation, while there are so so many grammatical errors,.plus.many many textual.changes to the most.correct.book. Why is.this so?

Would you apply the same test to The Bible as.the BoM?

 

[kevinmaynard]

Ok I have never read the book of Mormon. I was brought up Pentecostal and have no idea what they believe other than I have heard all the crazy stories some tell to disparage them. Like magic underwear, but those people think the pope is the AntiChrist and the Catholics are cultists too. I loved Donnie and Marie as a really little kid and even had their guitar. So they seem pretty normal to me. However, I do live in Houston, and I find the concept of the church buying the late teen men a condo to ride bikes around all day while wearing a white colored shirt a bit odd.

I guess what I am trying to say is Mormonism doesn't sound any fundamentally crazier on its face than any other form of Christianity.

 

[Der Alte]

While I did say we don't have original manuscripts for the Bible, I did not say the Bible can't be trusted. It is the translation of man we need to watch out for.

Yes, I do say I'd believe in the Bible even without evidence. I would remain true to my belief that things weren't translated perfectly but I would trust the Bible as a whole and still accept it as the word of God.

I believe the Book of Mormon and Bible are true. The golden plates were returned to Moroni and we don't have the original manuscripts for the Bible. The prophets of the Book of Mormon and Bible were each inspired by the Holy Ghost about what to write. Their words are true. The translation of the Book of Mormon was done directly by revelation from God while translations of the Bible have been done by knowledge according to man.

Nothing changes the fact that God has told me the Book of Mormon is true.

According to one man, not any verifiable revelation from God, the BOM was translated correctly. What the average TBM is never taught is that we do not have to rely on any translation. We have the original Hebrew and Greek and tons of lexicons and grammars, we can check and recheck the translation of any word in the Bible. Are the manuscripts that we have correct? The Qumran and DSS scrolls dating to 100 BC show us that we have the same O.T. that Jesus read. Are the Greek NT manuscripts correct? It has been said about 90% of the NT can be recreated from the quotes in the early church fathers. Can any of this be said about the BOM or any other LDS writing?

I have never been able to understand how the "gold plates" could have been "returned" to Moroni, when they did not originate with him.

 

[Moodshadow]

Here's another that makes for a good discussion: do you believe an evil spirit comes from God?

Who do you believe was the father of Lucifer's spirit?

 

[LegacyJB]

According to one man, not any verifiable revelation from God, the BOM was translated correctly. What the average TBM is never taught is that we do not have to rely on any translation. We have the original Hebrew and Greek and tons of lexicons and grammars, we can check and recheck the translation of any word in the Bible. Are the manuscripts that we have correct? The Qumran and DSS scrolls dating to 100 BC show us that we have the same O.T. that Jesus read. Are the Greek NT manuscripts correct? It has been said about 90% of the NT can be recreated from the quotes in the early church fathers. Can any of this be said about the BOM or any other LDS writing?

I have never been able to understand how the "gold plates" could have been "returned" to Moroni, when they did not originate with him.

100 BC...I'm sorry, what exactly is that compared to when the prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Isaiah, and the others lived and wrote? How many years is that in between? Those are big gaps. Thanks for reiterating what I already said. The manuscripts are from the 100s BC. We have zero original manuscripts handwritten by the prophets themselves. We do not have their exact words. Not copies of copies of copies like these manuscripts.

Believing the Book of Mormon is true is about faith and honestly, so is the Bible. Heck, Atheists believe in the Bible but not in a spiritual way. They believe in the evidences and history but not the God factor. Even with evidences and manuscripts, albeit we do not have the originals, these things are absolutely worthless for salvation. What is it that no evidence will ever prove to anyone? That Jesus is the Son of God. This is only known by the Holy Ghost.

 

[LegacyJB]

*staff edit*

Have you guys not realized I'm strong in my faith and that you cannot shake me from the foundation of Jesus Christ?

 

[isleof]

You guys love to debate, especially with Mormons. Your only purpose is to win, not to promote Christ. Have you guys not realized I'm strong in my faith and that you cannot shake me from the foundation of Jesus Christ?

legacyjb, what is your stance?

If you say I need to read and believe in your mormon book, you've betrayed God. *staff edit*

 

[LegacyJB]

Do you fully trust the Bible with the same amount of trust you give the BoM?

I notice.that you did not respond to my comments about Mr. Smith's claims of the authenticity of translation, while there are so so many grammatical errors,.plus.many many textual.changes to the most.correct.book. Why is.this so?

Would you apply the same test to The Bible as.the BoM?

Because some things are not important. Not all of your questions will actually matter to me. I'm fully capable of answering question about the church but I choose to not answer all of them. That's pointless because after every answer is just another question. God has told me the book is true and that's good enough for me. That's something no one can disprove. Ask God with an open heart if the book is true. That's all it takes. I will respond to you again after you truly ask Him in faith.

 

[LegacyJB]

legacyjb, what is your stance?

If you say I need to read and believe in your mormon book, you've betrayed God. That isn't possible though. Nobody is that ignorant.

Excuse you but I have NOT betrayed God. I am faithful to Him in all things. I will answer you again only after you read the Book of Mormon and pray to God asking if it's true with an open heart.

 

[isleof]

Excuse you but I have NOT betrayed God. I am faithful to Him in all things. I will answer you again only after you read the Book of Mormon and pray to God asking if it's true with an open heart.

I've read the book of mormon and found it in error for accusing believers in God as being liars.

With that attitude, please don't answer me, for im neither worthy of your answer or the perishing worlds response.

 

[Tony Kara]

While I did say we don't have original manuscripts for the Bible, I did not say the Bible can't be trusted. It is the translation of man we need to watch out for.

Yes, I do say I'd believe in the Bible even without evidence. I would remain true to my belief that things weren't translated perfectly but I would trust the Bible as a whole and still accept it as the word of God.

I believe the Book of Mormon and Bible are true. The golden plates were returned to Moroni and we don't have the original manuscripts for the Bible. The prophets of the Book of Mormon and Bible were each inspired by the Holy Ghost about what to write. Their words are true. The translation of the Book of Mormon was done directly by revelation from God while translations of the Bible have been done by knowledge according to man.

Nothing changes the fact that God has told me the Book of Mormon is true.

Do you fully trust the Bible with the same amount of trust you give the BoM?

I notice.that you did not respond to my comments about Mr. Smith's claims of the authenticity of translation, while there are so so many grammatical errors,.plus.many many textual.changes to the most.correct.book. Why is.this so?

Would you apply the same test to The Bible as.the BoM?

 

[Tony Kara]

You guys love to debate, especially with Mormons. Your only purpose is to win, not to promote Christ. Have you guys not realized I'm strong in my faith and that you cannot shake me from the foundation of Jesus Christ?

Hmmmm, dude, you don't know me, and.I don't know you. How can you say with any veracity what "my purpose" is. It seems to that such a statement is quite presumptuous. I strongly encourage you not to make any presumptions.of me.

Where did you get the idea that I am trying to shake your.faith, i.e.."from your foundation of Jesus"?

Statements like this are evidence that you are not as.familiar with the Bible as you think you are, lest you would.be.familiar with Hebrews 12.

I am.still.wondering why you won't."test" the Bible.with the same standard.you "test" the BoM?

 

[Tony Kara]

Because some things are not important. Not all of your questions will actually matter to me. I'm fully capable of answering question about the church but I choose to not answer all of them. That's pointless because after every answer is just another question. God has told me the book is true and that's good enough for me. That's something no one can disprove. Ask God with an open heart if the book is true. That's all it takes. I will respond to you again after you truly ask Him in faith.

Perhaps you totally and.completely missed my question. I am not.speaking of the BoM. I am speaking of the Bible.
I have never questions your claim of revelation, that is.between you and Papa.

There is a discernable undertone in your.posts. It appears to be in the realm of a percieved persecution complex. If I give the impression of.being a threat, I apologize. That is.not my intent.

Why is it "pointless" to.answer questions? If the replies lead to more.questions, it is.probably because the answer is.lacking in.some.way.

Is it possible that you are not familiar Proverbs 27, and the 3rd.chapter of Simon bar Jonah's first letter. The last time I checked, asking questions IS Christ like behaviour. You all ready know this as you are familiar with the 2nd chapter of Luke.

I am still waiting to find out why you won't give the Bible the same.test as you do the BoM