Who Goes To Hell?

[Der Alte]

I see no such footnote on p.108 here:
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf​

Typo pg. 180.

That alleged EOB quote contradicts your Jewish quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

What part of my quotes was alleged. Everything I quoted I copied directly from the EOB.

EOB says Hades is not hell/Gehenna/the lake of fire.
JE says Hades is Gehenna.
So which of the two do you agree with & which is wrong?

Jewish view vs. Greek view. When I'm talking about Jewish views I will rely on Jewish sources for the correct understanding of their views.

BTW, did you know EOB consistently renders Greek phrases literally with "unto [the] ages of ages" rather than with the self contradictory "forever and ever" nonsense of many versions? So who's wrong, the EGO translation or KJV & Bullinger?

"ages of ages" translates "aion" NOT "aionios." which EOB translates as "eternal/everlasting"

Also the Greek Bible (EOB) you have been recently touting as the Pope of all Bible versions isn't very impressed with your love for the NIV:

Who said I loved the NIV. I do not rely on any version. If there is anything in question I always go to the Hebrew or Greek.

"Every attempt has been made to offer an accurate and scholarly translation of the
Greek text, free of the theological bias that has affected most other translations of the New Testament, including the NIV (2 Thess. 2:15) andNAB (Matt. 5:32)"

Once again irrelevant I verify everything with BDAG or BDB.

"...Orthodox Christians should be aware that the foundational Greek text used by most modern translations such as the New International Version and (New) Revised Standard Version is the Critical Text (CT). By contrast, the foundational text for the King James and New King James versions is the Textus Receptus (TR). Moreover, many use the dynamicequivalency translation approach as opposed to formal-equivalency. Due to doctrinal bias and other aberrations, these translations are generally prohibited for ecclesiastical use by Orthodox hierarchs."

The manuscript base for the New Testament was the Koine Greek language editions of the United Bible Societies and of Nestle-Aland.[13] T
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/original/18204/18204-New-Testament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf

EOB states the translation was originally intended to be a revision of the New English Bible.

Irrelevant.

They consulted a Murray J. Harris. Harris is alleged to have gained his PHD under FF Bruce of known endless punishment bias.

Playing fast and loose with the facts.

During the process of verifying, correcting and retranslating the WEB text for the SOB/NT edition, the Patriarchal Text of 1904 and the UBS/NA Critical Text were systematically consulted. In addition, recent scholarly studies have been taken into consideration, notably Jesus as God The New Testamant Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus (Murray J. Harris); And a few others.​

EOB adds: "Luke's overaching theme is the universal salvation brought about by Christ and the fact that the outcast and neglected are embraced by it."

This life. There aren't any outcasts and neglected in the grave.

At Titus 1:2 where aionios occurs EOB translates with "before the age begun" rather than using the English words "eternal" or "everlasting".

Recognizing a figurative use because the first occurrence in that vs. is "eternal."

EOB also states:
"...Hence, the goal of the main text is to provide the reader with a clear sense of what the Scriptures say with possible nuances, not how they should be interpreted."

Still playing fast and loose. That is in the "Footnotes" section.

Of course many Eastern Orthodox today are hopeful universalists or universalists, as they were also in the times of the early church:...

I'm not interested in your assumptions/presuppositions. Got anything like facts?​

 

[WebersHome]

.
I once heard of a preacher asked by a young member of his congregation what he would have to do bad enough to wind up in Hell.

The preacher answered: You don't have to do anything especially bad to go to Hell; no, just bide your time and you'll wind up there without even trying because Hell is the default.

● Eph 2:3 . . .We were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

The nature spoken of in that passage is human nature which means that the only thing people need do to end up in Hell is just be h.sapiens. That makes it simple enough to get into Hell that anybody can do it.
_

 

[Der Alte]

... Notice how in the Parable of the Talents the word "the kingdom of heaven" are always in Italics, because they were later (erroneously) added. Also notice how the entire parable is talking about wealth and money and exploiting the poor, that is the opposite of what Jesus is trying to teach about the Kingdom of Heaven.....

Irrelevant. Did you read my post? Where there two outer darknesses? One for the kingdom of heaven and one for Herod to throw his enemies into?
This is not about King Herod. Herod beheaded his foes.

Matthew 25:30
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

This is what Jesus meant when He said outer darkness.

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

 

[FineLinen]

.
The nature spoken of in that passage is human nature which means that the only thing people need do to end up in Hell is just be h.sapiens. That makes it simple enough to get into Hell that anybody can do it.
_

This a wonderful concept indeed.

Step 1 = be born.

Step 2 = continue as a h. sapien.

Too bad so sad, welcome to Webber math, please stand in line.

 

[agapelove]

Irrelevant. Did you read my post? Where there two outer darknesses? One for the kingdom of heaven and one for Herod to thrown his enemies into?
This is not about King Herod. Herod beheaded his foes.

Matthew 25:30
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

This is what Jesus meant when He said outer darkness.

Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

Irrelevant. Did you read mine? The outer darkness is a symbol of exclusion. Jesus is trying to show how those who refuse to serve and further the kingdom of this world will be excluded from the blessings of this world.

Matthew 25:24 "Master, I knew you were a demanding person, harvesting where you did not plant and gathering where you did not scatter."
Matthew 25:26 "His master said to him, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I did not plant and gather where I did not scatter. Should you not then have put my money in the bank so that I could have got it back with interest on my return?'"
Matthew 25:28 "'Now then! Take the talent from him and give it to the one with ten. For to everyone who has, more will be given and he will grow rich; but the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away.'"

Does this Master sound like Jesus to you?!

 

[BlessedCreator]

Universal Restoration (UR) is not a get-out-of-hell-free card.
No one will be completely saved until they have a conversion experience.
Therefore, UR doesn't mean everyone goes straight to heaven, more like everyone goes to hell, for a while. Like Jesus said, we will ALL be salted with fire.

And I could say the same thing about your verses. They make no sense if there is no forever burning hell with no hope of escape.

What do you make of this?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

"The results of Christ’s death are co-extensive with the results of Adam’s fall—they extend to all men; but the individual responsibility rests with each man as to which he will cherish—that which he derives from Christ or that which he derives from Adam—the “offence” of Adam or the “grace” of Christ. "
-Ellicott commentary on 1 Cor 15:22

All will be made alive that give heed to gospel call, be transformed by God into a new moral life and endure unto the end in obedience.

But the lukewarm, hypocrites, unprofitable servants and the rest that commit iniquity will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth just as Jesus tells us.

 

[ClementofA]

Typo pg. 180.

What part of my quotes was alleged. Everything I quoted I copied directly from the EOB.
​

That should be evident from the fact it didn't exist where you said it did, namely on page 108. Hence the reference to an "alleged" quote that you quoted. Capish?

Jewish view vs. Greek view. When I'm talking about Jewish views I will rely on Jewish sources for the correct understanding of their views.

You'll rely on an erroneous Jewish view? Or an erroneous Greek view? Both of which you quoted & both of which cannot both be true. So which is the false view, the Greek view or the Jewish view?

Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg.108
Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96

That alleged EOB quote contradicts your Jewish quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia.

EOB says Hades is not hell/Gehenna/the lake of fire.

JE says Hades is Gehenna.

So which of the two do you agree with & which is wrong?

"ages of ages" translates "aion" NOT "aionios." which EOB translates as "eternal/everlasting"

Obviously, but as I asked: BTW, did you know EOB consistently renders Greek phrases literally with "unto [the] ages of ages" rather than with the self contradictory "forever and ever" nonsense of many versions? So who's wrong, the EOB translation or KJV & Bullinger?

Who said I loved the NIV.

You've sung their praises quite a few times.

Once again irrelevant I verify everything with BDAG or BDB.

Evidently not your pet aion/ios/olam/ad theory.

Playing fast and loose with the facts.

During the process of verifying, correcting and retranslating the WEB text for the SOB/NT edition, the Patriarchal Text of 1904 and the UBS/NA Critical Text were systematically consulted. In addition, recent scholarly studies have been taken into consideration, notably Jesus as God The New Testamant Use of Theos in Reference to Jesus (Murray J. Harris); And a few others.
​

No, they clearly consulted the man, i.e. his above stated book. As i said:

They consulted a Murray J. Harris. Harris is alleged to have gained his PHD under FF Bruce of known endless punishment bias.

​

Recognizing a figurative use because the first occurrence in that vs. is "eternal."

Putting words in the mouths of the EOG are you now? Where do they support your pet theory which you've provided not a single scholar or amateur in agreement with you in the history of the church.

Still playing fast and loose. That is in the "Footnotes" section.

Huh? What are you talking about? It's in the "Introduction" notes to the EOB version.

I'm not interested in your assumptions/presuppositions. Got anything like facts?

​

What would you consider "facts" with regard to how many Eastern Orthodox today are hopeful universalists or universalists? The voice of God from heaven? A "father" in the Eastern Orthodox church who actively opposes universalism stating so?

My previous post already gave you this:

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

 

[Saint Steven]

.
I once heard of a preacher asked by a young member of his congregation what he would have to do bad enough to wind up in Hell.

The preacher answered: You don't have to do anything especially bad to go to Hell; no, just bide your time and you'll wind up there without even trying because Hell is the default.

● Eph 2:3 . . .We were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

The nature spoken of in that passage is human nature which means that the only thing people need do to end up in Hell is just be h.sapiens. That makes it simple enough to get into Hell that anybody can do it.
_

That's pathetic.
What sort of Father would devalue his own children, made in his likeness, to that degree?
Only Satan would inspire such a low view of humankind.

1 John 3:1-2
See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

 

[Der Alte]

Irrelevant. Did you read mine? The outer darkness is a symbol of exclusion. Jesus is trying to show how those who refuse to serve and further the kingdom of this world will be excluded from the blessings of this world....

Concentrating on out-of-context proof texts invariably results in false doctrines.

Matthew 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

Cast out of the kingdom of heaven into outer darkness. Was there another outer darkness for earthly kings to throw their enemies in?

 

[Saint Steven]

"The results of Christ’s death are co-extensive with the results of Adam’s fall—they extend to all men; but the individual responsibility rests with each man as to which he will cherish—that which he derives from Christ or that which he derives from Adam—the “offence” of Adam or the “grace” of Christ. "
-Ellicott commentary on 1 Cor 15:22

All will be made alive that give heed to gospel call, be transformed by God into a new moral life and endure unto the end in obedience.

But the lukewarm, hypocrites, unprofitable servants and the rest that commit iniquity will be cast into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth just as Jesus tells us.

It's easy to tell when it isn't the gospel... it's bad news.

 

[agapelove]

Concentrating on out-of-context proof texts invariably results in false doctrines.

Matthew 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.​

Cast out of the kingdom of heaven into outer darkness. Was there another outer darkness for earthly kings to throw their enemies in?

How is what I quoted out of context when it is literally what we are talking about?

Jesus was using King Herod to represent the gods of this age, the ones who steal from the poor to make themselves more rich (this is literally what the Master is doing and telling his servants to do). Once again does this sound like Jesus?!

Even if it was not a direct reference to King Herod He is clearly talking about rulers/masters of this world. The Master is NOT GOD.

The final statements of the Parable of the Talents has the "master" demanding that his enemies be outcast. This is foreshadowing what will happen to Jesus Himself and those who follow Him when they stand up to the gods of this age.

Immediately after this parable is the Parable of the Goats and Sheeps. How does Jesus tell us he will differentiate between the two? By how they treated the "least of these brothers and sisters of mine" (Matthew 25:40).

The alternative reading of this parable makes much more sense in light of the context and complete ministry of Jesus.

 

[BlessedCreator]

It's easy to tell when it isn't the gospel... it's bad news.

Christ Himself talked about the hell and damnation more than anyone else in the Bible therefore your words are false.

 

[Saint Steven]

Christ Himself talked about the hell and damnation more than anyone else in the Bible therefore your words are false.

Explain how you got "false" out of this?

Saint Steven said: ↑
It's easy to tell when it isn't the gospel... it's bad news.

 

[FineLinen]

"The results of Christ’s death are co-extensive with the results of Adam’s fall—they extend to all men; but the individual responsibility rests with each man as to which he will cherish—that which he derives from Christ or that which he derives from Adam—the “offence” of Adam or the “grace” of Christ. "
-Ellicott commentary on 1 Cor 15:22

That is pathetic!

The fall extends to all mankind due to one mans sin and disobedience. That fall is described by St. Paul as "not by any choice of its own".

Now the but, but, but.

Mankind is lost NOT by any choice of its own but by reason of Him who made it so.

Too bad, so sad, you are responsible to get yourself out of this lostness ? ?

Give this old sinner a break!

 

[FineLinen]

Christ Himself talked about the hell and damnation more than anyone else in the Bible therefore your words are false.

Really ? ?

Search = "damnation"

Your search query has yielded no results.

Please modify your search & try again.

And again & again & again.

 

[JulieB67]

What do you make of this?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

I believe it exactly as written. No one has perished at this point in time. When we die a physical death our spirit is still very much alive. All are awaiting the great white throne of judgment. Being alive at this point does not mean someone will have eternal life.

In the Strong's numbered concordance and Greek dictionary, we see that this is the only place in the whole Bible that this Greek word "alive" is used in this form. It is # 2227 in Strong Greek dictionary. "zoopoieo, dzo-op-oy-eh'-o; to vitalize, to make alive, to give life .. It doesn't mean one will have "eternal" life.
Only those that come to repentance will have that. And not all will.

Revelation 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire


Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Many of you seem to not believe that the second death has any power and if that was the case, this verse and meaning would be useless.

And again it would totally negage Christ teaching in Matthew 10:28


Matthew 10:28 "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

What some of you are saying is we should not be fearing anything (totally contradicting Christ's teaching) and that there technically is not a second death. But that is not biblical.

Again, I don't believe there will be anyone burning forever in eternity but I do believe in the second death, the death of the soul.

 

[Saint Steven]

That is pathetic!

The fall extends to all mankind due to one mans sin and disobedience. That fall is described by St. Paul as "not by any choice of its own".

Now the but, but, but.

Mankind is lost NOT by any choice of its own but by reason of Him who made it so.

Too bad, so sad, you are responsible to get yourself out of this lostness ? ?

Give this old sinner a break!

Looks like we could all use a little GOOD NEWS.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

 

[FineLinen]

What some of you are saying is we should not be fearing anything (totally contradicting Christ's teaching) and that there technically is not a second death. But that is not biblical.

Of course there is a 2nd death.

It is the Lake of Theos whose defining characteristics are theion & theioo.

One question for you, can you disclose what differentiates the Lake of Theos & our God the consuming Fire/pur?

 

[Saint Steven]

... What some of you are saying is we should not be fearing anything (totally contradicting Christ's teaching) and that there technically is not a second death. But that is not biblical.

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

 

[JulieB67]

1 John 4:18
There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

As a Christian I don't fear the second death.

But what is your interpretation of Matthew 10:28?