Who Goes To Hell?

[ClementofA]

Lamentations 3:22-27
22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.​

This proof text only applies to the living.

​

The following translation refers to "forever". In what dictionary does that refer only to "this life"? "The Lord will not cast off forever" refutes the endless punishment dogma. At least in your typically mistranslated versions like KJV, NIV, JPS, etc.

Lamentation 3:

31For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.

Which refutes Mt.25:46 as a "proof text" vs Universalism.

JPS Ezekiel 28:19 All they that know thee among the peoples shall be appalled at thee; thou art become a terror, and thou shalt never be any more.'

None of that "to the age,""to the eon,""age abiding" nonsense. Real Hebrew scholars understood that the combination עד־עולם/ad olam means never/forever.

Is it then your view the King of Tyre will be (or has been) annihilated?

Have you changed from the endless tortures view to endless annihilation?

How can a being "never be any more" (Ezek.28:19 mistranslation above) and at the same time be tortured eternally?

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[ClementofA]

There is no hope in the grave/hell.​

Nobody in the grave/hell are waiting or seeking for anything.
Nobody in the grave/hell is waiting for salvation.
Nobody is bearing any yokes in the grave/hell.

Do you have scripture to support any of those statements? If so, which verses apply to each of them? Do you, therefore, believe in the doctrine of "soul sleep"?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
​

Is it, therefore, your view that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) who had died did "know not any thing" and "the memory of [him was] forgotten" (Eccl. 9:5, quoted above by you)? That the story about him is fictional?

Is it, therefore, your view that the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) who had died "shall not rise" (Isa.26:14) when all the dead are risen?

Is it, therefore, your viewpoint that Love Omnipotent will not "shew wonders to the dead" and the dead will never "arise and praise Thee" (Psa.88:10)?

​

 

[agapelove]

Lamentations 3:22-27
22 It is of the LORD'S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not.
23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.
24 The LORD is my portion, saith my soul; therefore will I hope in him.
25 The LORD is good unto them that wait for him, to the soul that seeketh him.
26 It is good that a man should both hope and quietly wait for the salvation of the LORD.
27 It is good for a man that he bear the yoke in his youth.​

This proof text only applies to the living.
There is no hope in the grave/hell.
Nobody in the grave/hell are waiting or seeking for anything.
Nobody in the grave/hell is waiting for salvation.
Nobody is bearing any yokes in the grave/hell.
Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Isaiah 26:14 They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish.
Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalms 88:10 Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalms 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Isaiah 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
John 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

Good thing Jesus defeated death and He now holds the keys to hell/Hades. Rev 1:18.

 

[ClementofA]

.
● 2Ths 2:11-12 . . God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

In other words; there's coming a time when God's patience will reach its reasonable limits, and He will purposely, willfully, and deliberately make sure that a certain category of people have no chance whatsoever to be spared the wrath of God.

That recalls King Neb in Daniel. After God made him like an animal eating grass for 7 years Love Omnipotent restored his soul from that destruction & he worshipped the Saviour of the world.

» Back when Noah was preparing the ark, no doubt his neighbors all mocked and poked fun at him like one of those deranged souls that go around with a sandwich board that reads: Repent; The End Is Near! But when the rain started, I bet those very same neighbors panicked and tried to get Noah to open up and let them in. But even had Noah wanted to; he couldn't. The hatch of the ark was sealed from the outside: and God was the only one on earth who could open it-- He chose not to.
_

Yeah, a time comes when people won't be corrected by listening to the truth. Then punishment comes, like in the case of King Neb.

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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[Der Alte]

Good thing Jesus defeated death and He now holds the keys to hell/Hades. Rev 1:18.

My Bible has 31,172 verses.

Revelation 21:4-8
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Although God said “no more death,” vs. 4 and “I make all things new,” vs. 5, in vs. 8, eight groups of sinful people are cast into the lake of fire, which despite “no more death,” vs 4, is still “the second death.”
…..Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall inherit NOT all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”
Salvation is not mentioned after this in Rev.

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:15
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

Two more verses- The End.

 

[Der Alte]

...

That recalls King Neb in Daniel. After God made him like an animal eating grass for 7 years Love Omnipotent restored his soul from that destruction & he worshipped the Saviour of the world.

...

Was that while he was still alive or after his death?

 

[ClementofA]

My Bible has 31,172 verses.

Revelation 21:4-8
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

Although God said “no more death,” vs. 4 and “I make all things new,” vs. 5, in vs. 8, eight groups of sinful people are cast into the lake of fire, which despite “no more death,” vs 4, is still “the second death.”
…..Note in vs. 7 God specifies conditions i.e. “He that overcomes shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.”
God does not say everyone shall inherit all things etc. The converse of that stated condition is, “He that does NOT overcome shall inherit NOT all things; and I will NOT be his God, and he shall NOT be my son.”
Salvation is not mentioned after this in Rev.

Revelation 22:11-12
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:15
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:18-19
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.​

Two more verses- The End.

Nothing there is irreconcilable with biblical universalism. For example:

New International Version
And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.
Revelation 22:19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

This passage doesn't say anyone will have their part in the tree of life & holy city taken away FOREVER.

If you have your posting privileges or drivers licence taken away, does that mean you lose them FOREVER or until they are given back to you?

If the law locks you up & takes away your freedom to live in a city, it can restore it later.

"So far as things being taken away, etc, that's never the end of the story because the end of the story is the reconciliation of all things. If some might have to forfeit part of their reward, or be punished for something wrong in them, that doesn't mean they will be forever fixed in that state. In Romans, Paul speaks of the natural branches (the Jews) being cut off, and the Gentiles being grafted in, and then he says that God is able to graft back in the natural branches as well. To be cut off is to be lost for a time, but nothing is forever lost to God, because God is the good shepherd who brings back the last lost lamb. We all get anxious from time to time, and some suffer more than others, but remember:

"God is love. He's not playing games with us. He's not going to exile us for honest mistakes. He's trustworthy."

"1Pe 5:7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you."

Question about Revelation 22:19

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

Revelation 5:13 speaks of a time beyond the punishment in the lake of fire.


Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."


That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.


https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf


Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

 

[ClementofA]

“Christ also has once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; which once were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was in preparation, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water… for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”...

Hell/the grave is never called prison and prison is never called hell/the grave in the Bible.
If as some folks claim Jesus preached to dead spirits in hell/the grave then His mission was a failure. There were only eight people saved, Noah and his family, and they were alive, not dead.
Preaching to dead spirits in the the grave/hell was not part of Jesus' ministry.

Luke 4:18-19
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

The word translated "captives" literally "prisoner(s) of war." There are no poor, brokenhearted, captives, blind or bruised in the grave,

In Luk 4:18-19 Jesus states what His earthly ministry was.
Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war" those are the captives Jesus preached freedom to. The primary meaning of the word translated "deliverance" is "freedom." 1 Pet 3:18-20 is the passage which some folks think refers to Jesus supposedly preaching in hell.
1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This passage does not refer to the dead in the grave, sheol, or wherever, since the only people who were saved were alive, on the earth, not dead in the grave, i.e. Noah and his family.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

A commentary opines:

"You will note:

1. The preaching of Christ was to the dead of Noah's day.

2. The dead of that day were "disobedient" and perished in the great flood (8 souls were saved)

3. Those who perished (all minus 8) were confined to "prison" aka "spirits in prison".

4. Jesus Christ "preached" to these "disobedient", aka "even the dead", the good news of His triumph.

5. This proclamation occurred after suffering for sin and "being quickened by the Spirit."

6. Net result= judgement "according" to "men in flesh">>>>leading to living "according to God in spirit." "

 

[Der Alte]

...
This passage doesn't say anyone will have their part in the tree of life & holy city taken away FOREVER.
If you have your posting privileges or drivers licence taken away, does that mean you lose them FOREVER or until they are given back to you?...

Total nonsense. I do not read or respond to all those copy/pastes from tentmakers etc. If you can't express it in your own words I'm not interested. Examples from current events are meaningless. God said taken away and He never says they are given back.

 

[ClementofA]

Total nonsense. I do not read or respond to all those copy/pastes from tentmakers etc.

There was no copy/paste from tenmaker there.

Examples from current events are meaningless. God said taken away and He never says they are given back.

It seems you missed all the Scriptures in my post that say otherwise.

 

[ClementofA]

Was that while he was still alive or after his death?

Nothing in Luke 13:1-5 contradicts universalism, or even makes reference to hell or the afterlife - AT ALL:

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had [a]mingled with their sacrifices. 2 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? 3 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4 Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5 I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”

Speaking of the consequences of not repenting as merely perishing by having a tower fall on you is - so lame - if Jesus were a believer in endless punishment. Ooops!

 

[WebersHome]

.
Noah takes flak sometimes for not including more people aboard with him instead of using all that cargo space for animals and such. But the fault finders are unfair as Noah had no say in the matter. Passage aboard the ark was by invitation only; and in order to get invited, passengers had to be righteous.

● Gen 7:1 . .Jehovah then said to Noah: Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.

FAQ: What happened to all the people that drowned in the Flood? Did God restore them to life after the deluge was over?

A: No, they stayed dead.

FAQ: Where are they now?

A: Confined in an afterlife penal colony. (1Pet 3:18-20)

FAQ: That passage says Christ preached to those folk. When?

A: During the days of Noah; before the Flood.

FAQ: How so when Christ wasn't even born yet?

A: By means of the "My spirit" spoken of in Gen 6:3
_

 

[Saint Steven]

Noah takes flak sometimes for not including more people aboard with him instead of using all that cargo space for animals and such. But the fault finders are unfair as Noah had no say in the matter. Passage aboard the ark was by invitation only; and in order to get invited, passengers had to be righteous.

Good thing they had a second chance.

1 Peter 3:19-20
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

 

[Der Alte]

Good thing they had a second chance.
1 Peter 3:19-20
After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

This is another out-of-context UR proof text which does not say what they claim it does.
Hell is never called prison and prison is never called the grave/hell in the Bible.

Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.​

Here Jesus announces His earthly ministry. The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war" those are the captives Jesus preached freedom to. The primary meaning of the word translated "deliverance" is "freedom."

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

There were only dead people in the grave/hell, there were no poor, brokenhearted, captives or blind in the grave/ hell for Jesus to preach to.
If Jesus did in fact preach to dead spirits in the grave/hell then He was a failure since the only people who were saved was Noah and his family and they were alive not dead.

 

[WebersHome]

.
I often receive criticism from Christians for discussing a depressing topic like eternal suffering at Christmas time. But those Christians seem to forget that afterlife suffering is an essential component of the New Testament's gospel, and the very reason why its Jesus came into the world to die.

The Bible's hell is not a place you want to be. If people in there could step on somebody right now to get out; I guarantee you a good number of them wouldn't hesitate to climb up out of there on the bodies of their own children. People up here on the surface just don't appreciate how bad it is down there or they would flock to Jesus for safety-- bellowing, yelping, shouldering, shrieking, and stepping all over each other --like an insane crowd of holiday shoppers stampeding through the doors of Macy's when they open for business on Black Friday; hell's prisoners would trample everybody in their way just for a chance to grab Christ's garment and beg for mercy.

How many prisoners am I talking about?

According to Christ's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; the majority haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

● Matt 7:13-14 . . Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

● Matt 22:14 . . For many are called, but few are chosen.

Webster's defines "many" as consisting of, or amounting to, a large but indefinite number; while "few" is defined as consisting of, or amounting to, only a small number; viz: relative to many, few is the lesser. Bear with me while I flesh this out.

According to the US Census Bureau: as of Apr 18, 2020 @ 11:08 pm New York time, the resident population in the United States was approximately 329,668,319 with a death rate of approximately one every 12 seconds; which translates to an average of 7,200 American deaths of all ages, races, and genders during just one 24-hour calendar day.

According to 2009 US Census data; roughly 27.3% of America's daily deaths are under the age of 19, which would indicate that approximately 4,514 of the current daily death rate of 7,200 per 24 hours are adults. Giving the "many" the benefit of the doubt by setting their maximum percentage at 51%, would indicate a minimum of 2,302 American adults transferring to perdition every day: which translates to roughly 96 per hour.

That's a very conservative estimate as Christ didn't really specify exact percentages to represent the quantities of "few" and "many". But just think: by the time CBS completes its half-hour evening news report, a bare-bones minimum of 48 Americans become new arrivals in the fiery sector of Hades.

Using the ratio of 2,302 condemned souls per 329,668,319 population: computing the number of condemned souls worldwide from a currently estimated global population of 7,650,364,618 people, would suggest something like 53,421 new arrivals in hell every 24 hours; which translates to 2,226 souls every sixty minutes on the clock.

That rate would fill the 51,800 seats of the new Yankee Stadium to capacity in roughly 23 hours and 16 minutes. In other words: if the world's condemned souls started filing into the stadium at 06:00 am this morning, then by 05:16 am tomorrow, the stadium would be full to capacity.

Christmas and New Year's are even worse. A study done of 26 years of death certificates shows that coronary fatalities are, on average, 11.9% higher on those days than any other days of the year; with non-heart deaths spiking to 12.2% higher; and believe me folks, the Bible's God makes no exceptions for those holidays; no, none at all.

If Christ is a credible witness; then it's apparent that souls never stop cascading into the dungeons of hell in an endless stream like the unbelievable millions of poultry broilers passing annually through a Tyson chicken-processing plant on their way to Wendy's, McDonalds, Carl's Junior, Jack in the Box, Burger King, In-n-Out Burger, KFC, A&W, Arby's, Dairy Queen, Taco Bell, et al; and to supermarkets and restaurants all over the USA and wherever else Tyson vends its meats. The slaughtering and the butchering never stop.
_

 

[ClementofA]

This is another out-of-context UR proof text which does not say what they claim it does.
Hell is never called prison and prison is never called the grave/hell in the Bible.

​

Hell is never called prison and prison is never called hell in the Bible.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna (hell). Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in ***PRISON***. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

In Luk 4:18-19 Jesus states what His earthly ministry was.
Luke 4:18-19
(18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
(19) To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
The word translated "captives" literally means "prisoners of war" those are the captives Jesus preached freedom to. The primary meaning of the word translated "deliverance" is "freedom." 1 Pet 3:18-20 is the passage which some folks think refers to Jesus supposedly preaching in hell.
1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
This passage does not refer to the dead in the grave, sheol, or wherever, since the only people who were saved were alive, on the earth, not dead in the grave, i.e. Noah and his family.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

A commentary opines:

"You will note:

1. The preaching of Christ was to the dead of Noah's day.

2. The dead of that day were "disobedient" and perished in the great flood (8 souls were saved)

3. Those who perished (all minus 8) were confined to "prison" aka "spirits in prison".

4. Jesus Christ "preached" to these "disobedient", aka "even the dead", the good news of His triumph.

5. This proclamation occurred after suffering for sin and "being quickened by the Spirit."

6. Net result= judgement "according" to "men in flesh">>>>leading to living "according to God in spirit." "

Augustine's ignorance & error re Matthew 25:46

 

[ClementofA]

.


According to Christ's testimony as an expert witness in all matters pertaining to the afterlife; the majority haven't been making it to safety when they cross over to the other side.

● Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35
Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

Luke 13:24 explains the true meaning when Christ has shut up the door he has shut up your confusion. Luke 13:25

Does that say the door is shut forever? Compare:

Rev.21:25a Its gates will never be closed...

https://www.amazon.ca/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut/dp/1606088823

Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

 

[JulieB67]

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
4:6 For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

A commentary opines:

"You will note:

1. The preaching of Christ was to the dead of Noah's day.

2. The dead of that day were "disobedient" and perished in the great flood (8 souls were saved)

3. Those who perished (all minus 8) were confined to "prison" aka "spirits in prison".

4. Jesus Christ "preached" to these "disobedient", aka "even the dead", the good news of His triumph.

5. This proclamation occurred after suffering for sin and "being quickened by the Spirit."

6. Net result= judgement "according" to "men in flesh">>>>leading to living
"according to God in spirit." "

So you are now agreeing that these spirits in prison are indeed human beings that had passed on?
Because you seemed to disagree with this fact when I posted these very same scriptures to you,

I Peter 3:18 "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
I Peter 3:19 "By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison,"

I Peter 3:20 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering for God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water."

So you see these were people that had passed on in that time that were sometimes disobedient. No demons. And I hope we can all safely assume that there might be others that Christ has taught to.

Here's a few more scriptures to nail down just who Christ went to,

I Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead."

I Peter 4:6 "For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

The living and the dead. He's giving the ones that had died before him a chance to hear the gospel that were sometimes disobedient. (1st Peter 3:20) (It was alot harder for them back in those days, we have Christ today) But they deserve to hear just like we do in the flesh (the quick -alive)

 

[Der Alte]

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna (hell). Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

How does this address my post?

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in ***PRISON***. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

A parable is not to be taken literally. There is no verse which directly calls the grave/hell "prison" and no verse which calls "prison", "the grave/hell."
And none of this addresses the fact that when Jesus preached to anyone other than people of His own time it was not dead people in the grave/hell.

1 Peter 3:18-20
(18) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(19) By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
(20) Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.​

If Jesus was preaching to dead spirits in the grave/hell then He was a failure only 8 people were saved, Noah and his family and they were not dead but alive.
The rest of this copy/paste omitted i.e. GMac, Talbot, a commentary etc.
I do not click on links unless they are to standard references, historical evidence etc. not scribbling of some anonymous UR-ite.

 

[ClementofA]

So you are now agreeing that these spirits in prison are indeed human beings that had passed on?

No, dear, i simply posted what a commentary states for discussion purposes. Though i would probably lean that way, until anyone can convince me otherwise.

Because you seemed to disagree with this fact when I posted these very same scriptures to you,

Not that i recall. But feel free to see if you can find anything like that i said.

If i recall i mentioned to you Julie that the issue is not really relevant since i showed you from Scripture that there are evil - non humans - in heavenly places & that Jesus' sacrifice was intended to reconcile ALL in the heavens. As follows:

There's nothing fanciful about that, just scripture. These aren't the fallen angels whose sin was much greater. These are people that were "sometimes" disobedient.

It looks more like some scripture plus some fanciful additions to it. Like assuming the rich man in torments in "hell" (Hades) was actually in heaven. And the "spirits in prison" Christ preached to were in a heavenly prison.

Yet it still ignores the fact of Satan being in the presence of God (Job 1-2) & God's intent to reconcile those in the heavens (Col.1:20), including the non human beings in heaven:

There are wicked spirits in heavenly places, but they are not humans:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Question: Where are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are "in heavenly places":

Eph. 3:8 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God

Question: Who are the "principalities" and "powers" (v.16 above)?
Answer: They are wicked and not human:

Eph.6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

Now, with that knowledge, read Col.1:16, 20 again:

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

""I am aware of 'this pastor'. The verse which hit him like a ton of bricks as he wrestled with a congregant challenging him with Ultimate Reconciliation was the following;

COL 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

As he went through the doorway the Spirit of Truth challenged him saying; "What needs to be reconciled 'IN HEAVEN'?" After all, nothing in the heavenly realm needs reconciling but demons. Like the song says; "There is power power in the blood of Jesus." More power and a better plan, than the nominal church can even believe. To have ears to hear, one must loosen the death grip on what they believe."

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