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Nope. BTW, I'm am the Rightwise Born King of All England. Prove I ain't. Until you do, I'd prefer to be addressed as "Your Majesty".More irrelevancy If someone says or implies that something I posted is wrong it is certainly relevant response to ask them to prove it and the rest of your argument is irrelevant.
Nary a word, and none of it faulty.Sounds like you are trying to back pedal for your faulty objection.
다른 똑같이 잘못된 주장Nope. BTW, I'm am the Rightwise Born King of All England. Prove I ain't. Until you do, I'd prefer to be addressed as "Your Majesty".
Nary a word, and none of it faulty.
Where'd the "only" come from? <Laugh>
So, all I see there is rhetorical flimflam. Whether eternal life began last Thuesday or 12 minutes after you die is irrelevant. The idea is that you are, and remain, alive. The alternative to eternal life is death, as in dead. The wages of sin is (say it with me) death. Not isolation from God (although being dead would accomplish that quite effectively), not alive but desperately unhappy, because you have to be alive to be happy, or sad, or indifferent. Dead is dead. The gift of God is eternal life. it's a gift, you see, not something we're all issued at birth. Some get it, and live forever. Some don't, and become (or, if you prefer, remain) dead. And when you're dead like that, you're erased from the timeline, end to end. God doesn't even remember you.("And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you"). If the Omniscient God never knew you, you never were. If you were still alive somewhere, He'd know it. If He never knew you, then you never really existed at all. That's a pretty effective eternal punishment, IMO. It may lack the fleshly appeal of being barbecued forever, but it means that no one will ever mourn over your fate, or that any trace of nastiness you may have perpetrated on earth will remain at all to ever stink up the perfection of God's universe.
Saul was obviously talking to a deceiving spirit, because Samuel was dead.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
The text says it was Samuel, not a "deceiving spirit".
-CryptoLutheran
Even of the rich man in Hades (Lk.16:19-31) it is not stated how long his torments would last while there. Or denied that they could end while still there. Nor is it denied he could be saved while still in Hades. The rich man's Saviour is in Hades:
"If I ascend up into heaven, Thou art there; If I make my bed in the nether-world (Sheol = Hades), behold, Thou art there." (Psalm 139:8)
The rich man is called "son" (literally, "child") :
Lk.16:25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things
"Here, too, was one who, even in Hades, was recognised as being, now more truly than he had been in his life, a “child” or “son of Abraham.” (Comp. Luke 19:9.) The word used is the same, in its tone of pity and tenderness, as that which the father used to the elder son in the parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:31), which our Lord addressed to the man sick of the palsy (Matthew 9:2), or to His own disciples (John 13:33)." Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
The rich man in Hades is receiving the Word of Truth from Abraham. If not to lead those there to repentance & salvation, why would anyone in Hades be receiving such truths.
When it is implied that the rich man is where he is due to his lack of compassion for his fellow man, in particular Lazarus, he responds positively by turning his attention from himself to his brethren still alive & requests that they be warned about Hades. Is the rich man turning from his selfishness & showing concern for others?
The story speaks of a great gulf fixed stopping the transfer of persons from one place to the other place. It does not say this gulf will remain in place forever. Only that at that moment in time it was so. Possibly the chasm barrier refers to the unrepentant state of those in Hades, & that once they repent the barrier stopping any individual from leaving is removed. Nor does the passage deny the possibility of salvation to the rich man in Hades while he remains there.
" “And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.” "
" "So even if we made the mistake of trying to extract from the details of this parable a position on the issue of whether there will be further chances, there still wouldn’t be much cause for taking this passage as supporting the doctrine of no further chances with any force at all. For as long as the [one] who believes in further chances sensibly allows for the possibility that, while punishment is occurring, those suffering from it can’t just end it any time they want, she can make perfectly good sense of the words this parable puts into the mouth of Father Abraham. After all, if a road has been covered with deep enough snow drifts, we’ll tell someone who must drive on that stretch of road to get to where we are, “You cannot cross over from there to us.” We’ll say this quite properly and truthfully, even if we know full well that the road will be cleared in a few days, or that, in a great enough emergency, a helicopter could be used to get across to us even today, if, say, we’re at a hospital. [But doesn’t that show that there is a sense, then, in which they can cross over to us? Yes, there’s a perfectly good sense in which they can, and a perfectly good sense in which they cannot. For enlightening and accessible explanations of the meaning of “can” and related words, I recommend Angelica Kratzer’s “What ‘Must’ and ‘Can’ Must and Can Mean” (Linguistics and Philosophy 1 (1977): pp. 337-355) and example 6 (“Relative Modality”) of David Lewis’s “Scorekeeping in a Language Game” (Journal of Philosophical Logic 8 (1979): pp. 339-359.]"
The duration, nature, intensity & purpose of the torments the rich man was suffering are not revealed in this story. His torments there could have lasted less than 5 minutes.
In Rev.20:11-15 those in Hades get out of Hades, so Hades (Lk.16:19-31) is not a place of unending torments. Assuming the parable's story is even to be taken literally.
Tom Talbott said:
"As for the unbridgeable chasm of which Jesus spoke in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, not one word in this parable, even if taken as literal history, as some do take it, implies that the chasm between Hades and Abraham’s bosom will remain unbridgeable forever. Do not Christians believe that the cross has already guaranteed the ultimate destruction of sin and death, where the “last enemy to be destroyed,” as we have already noted, “is death” itself? When 1 Peter 3:19 depicts Jesus as preaching to the spirits in prison (or those who were disobedient in the days of Noah) and 1 Peter 4:6 also depicts him as preaching the gospel to the dead, do these texts not illustrate perfectly the view of Elhanan Winchester,13 who wrote: “I believe, that Jesus Christ was not only able to pass, but that he actually did pass that gulph, which was impassable to all men but not to him”?14 Even if one should take the details of this parable more literally than one should, in other words, one can still view the Cross as the means whereby Jesus Christ has bridged this hitherto unbridgeable gulf. By flinging himself into the chasm between the dead and the living and by building a bridge over it, Jesus thus brought his message of repentance and forgiveness to all people, including those in Hades, which is the abode of the dead."
How to Read the Bible from a Universalist Perspective
We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:
Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35
Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”
1. Gehenna, which Jesus used as a metaphor for everlasting punishment.
Very well. What do you make of this?That's what I see our Lord saying, so yeah, I reckon I am.
All you are doing is posting your opinions which are based on the opinions of others which are based on their opinions regarding the opinions of others.It does matter when someone either ignores and/or misrepresents my post.
Here is it again.
The serious reader will note that shortly after the Israelites sacrificed their children to Moloch in Ge Hinnom, valley of Hinnom, "'Gehenna' therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell."
Later in the article The Jews refer to sheol as "hell." One place two different names.
"When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them.
Jewish Encyclopedia,Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
As long as you don't use/abuse your title by using it as a brand name to make money. It sucks.Nope. BTW, I'm am the Rightwise Born King of All England. Prove I ain't. Until you do, I'd prefer to be addressed as "Your Majesty".
Nary a word, and none of it faulty.
You obviously do not know the difference between "opinions" and credible, verifiable, historical evidence which I provide.All you are doing is posting your opinions which are based on the opinions of others which are based on their opinions regarding the opinions of others.
All your reading and studying the beliefs of various schools of thought which existed among the Rabbis (who did not all agree) isn't getting you any closer to what Jesus meant when He spoke of gehenna sometimes, and hades sometimes, and gave John the imagery of the Lake of Fire in His Revelation to His servants through His apostle John.
The Bible does not say those that go to hell are destroyed.
What God created He certainly can destroy but there is not one single verse which says that even one soul has been or will be destroyed in hell or anywhere else.
And I have to ask why we should consider Jewish beliefs as authoritative. They are, in the end, unbelievers.You obviously do not know the difference between "opinions" and credible, verifiable, historical evidence which I provide.
If you wished to study or discuss the beliefs and practices of the Jews in Israel before and at the time of Jesus, what evidence would you review?
When you wish to compare verses please quote them and show any similarity/difference.
Hey, I make most of my living these days renting out property that I own. I have found that makes me a "rentier", and a scourge on humanity. So since I'm a Really Bad Guy anyway, why not give product endorsements using my admittedly questionable title? Since it's unlikely that anyone will be able to prove that I'm not the rightful heir to the British Crown, then I submit that it must be assumed that I am.As long as you don't use/abuse your title by using it as a brand name to make money. It sucks.
Nope. It says God "is able to destroy" it does NOT say God "will destroy." And the word translated :destroy" does not necessarily mean to annihilate.Hmmm… Matt 10.28 says so.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy [ἀπόλλυμι/apollumi] both soul and body in hell.
Matt. 10:28
Correct me if I'm wrong here but wasn't Jesus and His disciples and all their relatives Jews and wouldn't they all have been exposed to the Jewish belief in hell?And I have to ask why we should consider Jewish beliefs as authoritative. They are, in the end, unbelievers.
Are you claiming that Damnationism and Universal Restoration have no biblical basis?By what I see, it is what the Bible tells. And I believe what the Bible tells.
I think this would be more efficacious if intoned in Latin.....
(BTW, when I assume the throne, my first official act will be to issue a decree that ordering that Millwall be promoted to the Premier League, and both West Ham and Leeds United be sent down to League One. So let it be written, so let it be done.)
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