Who goes to hell?

WillieH said:

There is no "HELL", for ANYONE to "go to"!

Name ONE Scripture which says ANYONE shall "Go to Heaven" or "Go go Hell" ...BTW, ...I won't be holding my breathe

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Matthew 5:22
22 and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

While mine Is StROnG...

Been Waiting on the short bus all day......

I even brought my own helmet

dollarsbill said:

Matthew 5:22
22 and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

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Actually it says they go into the fire of Gehenna. And as I've shown before, anything that goes into the fire is destroyed, not kept undestroyed and tortured.

As you probably know, Gehenna is the valley southwest of Jerusalem, not Hell.

And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. NIV

and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire ESV

but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Douy Rheims

nd whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire. YLT

The NASB uses the more spatial sounding terminology of "going into" but most the other ones I've found don't.

WillieH said:

1) You begin your post with a fallacy as a foundation, and thereby your conclusions have no other recoursse.




2) JESUS not only vocalized these 2 LAWS, He LIVED them. And in LIVING them, He... in SINFUL flesh, ...LIVED the PERFECT and SIN-LESS LIFE.



3) The above portion, is FUTILITY and self-absorbtion, not EXPLANATION.

How might a mentally challenged person get ANYTHING out of what you just said, H-A?

No offense, but all this amounts to, ...is you IMPRESSING yourself... not YOU helping another to UNDERSTAND.

4) GOD is the ultimate being concerning COMPLEXITY, for He, being as COMPLEX as He ...IS... amidst His OMNISCIENCE... is smart enough to KNOW that He is communicating with beings that are NOTHING in MENTAL comparison to Himself... and that the WAY to communicate with them, is via CONDESENSION... not by the cryptic presentation of COMPLICATED MATHEMATICS! Please!

Matt 18:3 -- "Verily I say unto you ...except you be CONVERTED and BECOME as little CHILDREN, ye shall NOT enter into the Kingdom of HEAVEN."

Among other things, mentally...

A CHILD is:

1. Without ANY pre-conceptions...
2. An EMPTY vessel - awaiting information and experience...
3. Trusting in nothing but his/her parents LOVE...
4. Safe within the care of that TRUST...
5. A vessel that can be MOLDED and SHAPED...

and most pertinent to this discussion:

6. You and I, before we become FULL of ourselves


5) On the other hand and OPPOSITE these things, ...as MEN and WOMEN, we become:

1. PRIDEFUL in the embracing of our "opinions" and "preconceptions"...
2. FULL of ourselves... and the info and experiences we have...
3. Without COMPLETE TRUST in anyone...
4. Worrisome, unsure, devoid of FAITH...
5. HARDENED, in the misplaced esteem we embrace of "ME" we have become

And most pertinent to this discussion:

6. You and I, after we have become FULL of ourselves...


In order to SEE/HEAR SPIRITUAL TRUTH, one must "LET GO" of his/her NATURAL SELF, and the dependence and importance we place upon our OWN EGO oriented ...selves.





No one has said that but YOU, H-A!

But those of us that can SEE/HEAR the TRUTH, already KNOW that the LAW is that which is FULFILLED by CHRIST... and is UNFULFILLED by us.

In that KNOWLEDGE... is FOUND the INNOCENCE of TRUST that we (all) LOST as our BEGINNING (child), departed from us, ...and in the CORRSIVENESS and CORRUPTION of TIME, ...was replaced with the PRIDE of individual "EGO", which far too much ESTEEMS its own "FULFILLING" of itself (the arrogance of "MY faith") over the DIEING to SELF, and yielding unto the FAITH OF ...JESUS ...in its place -- Gal 2:20 -- Rev 14:12

As long as one maintains the "FAITH" within oneself is... "MY FAITH", that one (sadly) remains WITHOUT ...HIS FAITH

And the HEART which enjoins this SELF-CENTERED perception, remains in its natural SELF-DECEPTION which is that which is above ALL other DECEIT that exists -- Jer 17:9



Peace...


...willieH

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I don't usually engage in Gish Gallops. Their appearance typically means a lack of true substance, but here goes.


1) What fallacy? I've proven mathematically that a portion of a whole does not equal a whole. As simple and childlike as this concept is that it takes no great leap to understand that if x or y are not equal to 0, then x+y does not and cannot equal x. How can simple, childlike math be a fallacy?

2) if you reduce the whole law to loving God and loving neighbor, then sinlessness is no great feat. You reduce Jesus sinlessness to commonality.

3) SEE response #1

ALSO, how is using simple math "trying to impress" myself? If you can't understand x+y does not equal x when neither x nor y are 0, it isn't my problem.

4) Addition is not complicated. That's why I put it in those terms so that even a child (who intuitively knows that a portion of a whole does not equal a whole) could understand.

5) Irrelevant. Now you are trying to impress yourself.

What is intelligible from the rest of your post looks like platitude.

Ishraqiyun said:

And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. NIV

and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire ESV

but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Douy Rheims

nd whoever may say, Rebel! shall be in danger of the gehenna of the fire. YLT

The NASB uses the more spatial sounding terminology of "going into" but most the other ones I've found don't.

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Hell is a bad translation for Gehenna. Gehenna is an actual place. There is no reason to translate Gehenna as Hell. Gehenna, Hades, Sheol and the verb tartaroo are all translated "Hell". Doesn't that seem a little fishy to you?

Timothew said:

You didn't answer post 147.

What kind of beast was it. Was it an octopus?

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look out its coming.......ahhhhh....the antichrist is here!

Timothew said:

Actually it says they go into the fire of Gehenna. And as I've shown before, anything that goes into the fire is destroyed, not kept undestroyed and tortured.

As you probably know, Gehenna is the valley southwest of Jerusalem, not Hell.

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They threw them in the fire for calling someone 'fool'?

Matthew 5:22
22 and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Timothew said:

Hell is a bad translation for Gehenna. Gehenna is an actual place.

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Or maybe YOUR translation is "bad"?

Matthew 5:30 (ESV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (ASV)
30 And if thy right hand causeth thee to stumble, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NIV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NASB)
30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NKJV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (BBE)
30 And if your right hand is a cause of trouble to you, let it be cut off and put it away from you; because it is better to undergo the loss of one part, than for all your body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (Darby)
30 And if thy right hand be a snare to thee, cut it off and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NLT)
30 And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NRSV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better for you to lose one of your members than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (TLB)
30 And if your hand—even your right hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. Better that than find yourself in hell.

Matthew 5:30 (GW)
30 And if your right hand leads you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose a part of your body than to have all of it go into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (KJV)
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (NASB77)
30 "And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell.

New Living Translation 2007
So if your eye--even your good eye--causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30 (WesleyNT)
30 And if thy right-hand cause thee to offend, cut it off and cast it from thee; for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

International Standard Version 2008
So if your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your body parts than to have your whole body thrown into hell.

American King James Version
And if your right eye offend you, pluck it out, and cast it from you: for it is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that your whole body should be cast into hell.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.

English Revised V.
And if thy right eye causeth thee to stumble, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not thy whole body be cast into hell.

Webster’s
And if thy right eye shall cause thee to sin, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

My "translation" is not bad. The original greek text actually says Gehenna.
Here is the verse. You can see for yourself.
καὶ εἰ ἡ δεξιά σου χεὶρ σκανδαλίζει σε ἔκκοψον αὐτὴν καὶ βάλε ἀπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμά σου βληθῇ εἰς γέενναν.

Easton's Bible Dictionary
(originally Ge bene Hinnom; i.e., "the valley of the sons of Hinnom"), a deep, narrow glen to the south of Jerusalem, where the idolatrous Jews offered their children in sacrifice to Molech (2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6). This valley afterwards became the common receptacle for all the refuse of the city. Here the dead bodies of animals and of criminals, and all kinds of filth, were cast and consumed by fire kept always burning. It thus in process of time became the image of the place of everlasting destruction. In this sense it is used by our Lord in Matthew 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33; Mark 9:43, 45, 47; Luke 12:5. In these passages, and also in James 3:6, the word is uniformly rendered "hell," the Revised Version placing "Gehenna" in the margin. (see HELL; HINNOM.)

dollarsbill said:

Or maybe YOUR translation is "bad"?

Matthew 5:30 (ESV)
30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.

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Maybe you have the wrong manuscripts?

Mat 5:30 και ει η δεξια σου χειρ σκανδαλιζει σε εκκοψον αυτην και βαλε απο σου συμφερει γαρ σοι ινα αποληται εν των μελων σου και μη ολον το σωμα σου εις γεενναν απελθη

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should go away into Gehenna. Codex Sinaiticus

he-man said:

Maybe you have the wrong manuscripts?

Mat 5:30 και ει η δεξια σου χειρ σκανδαλιζει σε εκκοψον αυτην και βαλε απο σου συμφερει γαρ σοι ινα αποληται εν των μελων σου και μη ολον το σωμα σου εις γεενναν απελθη

Mat 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should go away into Gehenna. Codex Sinaiticus

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Interesting. There are a few different greek manuscript families for Matt 5:30

ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 5:30 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
καὶ εἰ ἡ δεξιά σου χεὶρ σκανδαλίζει σε, ἔκκοψον αὐτὴν καὶ βάλε ἁπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμα σου εἰς γέενναν ἀπέλθῃ.
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 5:30 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
καὶ εἰ ἡ δεξιά σου χεὶρ σκανδαλίζει σε, ἔκκοψον αὐτὴν καὶ βάλε ἀπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμά σου βληθῇ εἰς γέενναν.
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 5:30 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
καὶ εἰ ἡ δεξιά σου χεὶρ σκανδαλίζει σε, ἔκκοψον αὐτὴν καὶ βάλε ἀπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμά σου εἰς γέενναν ἀπέλθῃ.
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 5:30 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
καὶ εἰ ἡ δεξιά σου χεὶρ σκανδαλίζει σε ἔκκοψον αὐτὴν καὶ βάλε ἀπὸ σοῦ· συμφέρει γάρ σοι ἵνα ἀπόληται ἓν τῶν μελῶν σου καὶ μὴ ὅλον τὸ σῶμά σου βληθῇ εἰς γέενναν
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 5:30 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
και ει η δεξια σου χειρ σκανδαλιζει σε εκκοψον αυτην και βαλε απο σου συμφερει γαρ σοι ινα αποληται εν των μελων σου και μη ολον το σωμα σου βληθη εις γεενναν
ΚΑΤΑ ΜΑΤΘΑΙΟΝ 5:30 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
και ει η δεξια σου χειρ σκανδαλιζει σε εκκοψον αυτην και βαλε απο σου συμφερει γαρ σοι ινα αποληται εν των μελων σου και μη ολον το σωμα σου βληθη εις γεενναν

(Source: Biblos.com)

The difference is blethe eis ge'ennan (thrown into Gehenna) versus eis ge'ennan apelthe (go away into Gehenna).

he-man said:

Maybe you have the wrong manuscripts?

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Guess you missed where I cited 20 English translations that agree with the term 'Hell'.

dollarsbill said:

Guess you missed where I cited 20 English translations that agree with the term 'Hell'.

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No, I saw it. That's irrelevant because we are going into the original manuscripts. You really need to because so many different words are translated as hell. The term hell loses any meaning. Do you mean Hades? Sheol? Gehenna? The popular American idea of Hell? Heck? Is it cold as hell or is it hotter than hell? Do you mean hell in the original english sense "To cover"?

We go to the original manuscipts and read the original languages.

old weatherd cross said:

Your Rap is Lame Man.

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Not much of an answer "man", which indeed is pretty doggone, "LAME"...

If you really had a grip on the truth, you would be able to REFUTE what I said, ...instead, all you come up with is "your rap is lame, man"?

Please!


Peace... ...any prayer that you get off the "speculation train", and board the "learning train"...

...willieH

Please know that no offense is intended in a personal manner to you (If you see the word "YOU or YOURS" etc., it is not intended to be personal to YOU, rather to all "you"s" to which it might apply, which indeed can include you!).

When I write, I write for anyone that God intends to observe that writing, and leave the results ("hearing" or not), in His hands...

dollarsbill said:

Matthew 5:22
22 and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

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...nice try, no cigar bro! Are all your posts based on SPECULATIONS which are NOT written as you show above?

Clinging to RELIGIOUS TRADITIONS will not bode well for you in the END. ...especially ADDING ("guilty enough" / "go into") terminology to the WORD, when instructed NOT to do so, in hopes to make the WORD say what YOU wish it to say, in order to support you RELIGION.

Tell us DB... what GREEK WORD is translated "GO" in this verse? Or the GREEK WORD that is translated, "GUILTY"?

This verse notes that one which applies the term "FOOL" where it is not indicated, will be IN DANGER of GEHENNA fire... does not say anything about "going to it"...

Also, as with many others, you have scratched the surface of the TERM GEHENNA, and determined this "fire" a LITERAL "fire", which any atheist could muster in reading the Scriptures...

JESUS was "TRIED" in "FIRE" -- Rev 3:18 -- do you really think that "FIRE" which TRIED JESUS, was a "LITERAL FIRE"? The very same Greek word -- PUR -- #G4442 -- is used in both -- Matt 5:22 -- and -- Rev 3:18 -- how can they not be the same "FIRE", DB?

The term "FIRE" is used both literally and figuratively in our own experience... a COACH "FIRES" up his team... does he TORCH them, DB" Or often PASSION is noted as a "FIRE", ...is someone PASSIONATE, burning and in need of medical care? When someone gets "FIRED" from a job, must they immediately go to the hospital?

Or are our lives which are TRIED in "FIRE" -- PRIOR to the appearing of CHRIST -- 1 Pet 1:7 -- 1 Pet 4:12 -- scorching us? How about the "FIREY" darts of the "wicked", are these "darts" actually BURNING us? -- Eph 6:16 --

Hope you see what I mean.

I call you not ..."FOOL", instead I shall leave that opportunity up to YOU to do for yourself, should you not HEAR and Learn!

Now may the WORD speak unto you... what shall be the outcome? We shall see:





The WORD of LOVE is SPIRITUAL bro... not LITERAL... except to those such as yourself, who center upon themselves, and instead of taking the WORD of LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- to the WORLD ...instead delivering the PERVERSION of EVIL, FAILURE, and VENGENT NEWS instead of the GOOD NEWS, of CHRIST'S PERFECT VICTORY -- Col 1:20 -- 2 Cor 5:19 -- John 1:29

Seeking in MISCHIEF, via the MOST DECEPTIVE instrument available to you (your own heart) -- Jer 17:9 -- PERVERTING the GOSPEL by disguising it with such teachings as "HELL", ...DEMOTING the message to FAILURE (the WORLD not SAVED) while exempting yourSELF from this outcome, but actively CAMPAIGNING an ETERNAL sorrow for the WORLD which GOD so (unchangingly -- Mal 3:6) LOVES...

Filling yourSELF with the JOY of LOVE, at the expense of GOD's desire and WILL (which is BOULEMA = INTENT), that NONE PERISH -- 2 Pet 3:9

Cutting off HIS HAND from the SAVING of any and all those in NEED of SAVING -- Luke 19:10 -- Isaiah 59:2 -- Isaiah 50:2 -- SAVING YOURSELF by your own (selfish) and Biblically unmentioned, "decision for CHRIST", in the stead of observing His EXCLUSIVE and DIVINE majesty of the act of SAVING sinful men from this realm, which CREDIT, is due HIM, not us...

And then in SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS, taking the POWER of LOVE, on the INTERNET, and wielding it (much as did HITLER wield his power), ...in the passing of JUDGMENT, which KILLS or TORMENTS the WORLD that GOD, ...(which IS LOVE) so UNCHANGINGLY LOVES -- John 3:16-17

To be pitied, and certainly prayed for...


Failing to rightly divide -- 2 Tim 2:15 -- the WORD of LOVE, which NEVER FAILS -- 1 Cor 13:8 -- in the INIQUITY you bring, exalting yourSELF, and in the same instant, decreeing the FAILURE of CHRIST to SAVE the WORLD -- Matt 7:22-23 -- daily distorting His message into a WEAPON of destruction ...instead of exalting it and SHOUTING of the MAJESTY of the PERFECT SAVIOR that ...HE IS! -- 1 John 4:14 -- 1 Tim 2:3-6 -- Phil 2:9-11


You shall face yourself one day -- Matt 7:22-23 -- and unfortunately, ...for you, ...it won't be much fun...



THIS IS "personally" for YOU:

Well, ...did you LEARN, DB? Or does deafness remain your condition?


Peace...

...willieH

Timothew said:

No, I saw it. That's irrelevant because we are going into the original manuscripts.

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Citing 20 English translations that prove you are wrong is irrelevant? I can see why you would think such. They didn't go into the originals?

You really need to because so many different words are translated as hell. The term hell loses any meaning. Do you mean Hades? Sheol? Gehenna? The popular American idea of Hell? Heck? Is it cold as hell or is it hotter than hell? Do you mean hell in the original english sense "To cover"?

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You are evading the issue of punishment in the fire mentioned several times in the NT. You're playing word games. Why would God burn people alive? He didn't have to do it that way? There are other ways. He chose to burn them.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

We go to the original manuscipts and read the original languages.

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Until you prove that your translating skills are above the MANY translators I cited then you are spinning your wheels. So where's your credentials?

dollarsbill said:

Citing 20 English translations that prove you are wrong is irrelevant? I can see why you would think such. They didn't go into the originals?

You are evading the issue of punishment in the fire mentioned several times in the NT. You're playing word games. Why would God burn people alive? He didn't have to do it that way? There are other ways. He chose to burn them.

Revelation 20:15 (NASB)
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Until you prove that your translating skills are above the MANY translators I cited then you are spinning your wheels. So where's your credentials?

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Go away and learn greek. Then come back and tell me that γέενναν isn't Gehenna. I will wait for you.

WillieH said:

THIS IS "personally" for YOU:

Well, ...did you LEARN, DB? Or does deafness remain your condition?

...willieH

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If I'm wrong then I won't burn in Hell forever, will I? Can you say the same?

dollarsbill said:

If I'm wrong then I won't burn in Hell forever, will I? Can you say the same?

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If you are right, then I'll burn in hell forever.

Lucky for me that you are not right, and the Bible is right.