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Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

Aussie Pete

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The big misunderstanding is what constitutes the church. It's all those who are born again, regardless of denominational affiliation. I meet quite a few believers who do not attend an institution. They reject both the traditional and the mega church model. Often it's because of perceived poor treatment. Often, they have a point. It's tragic because they need fellowship. I see a time coming when church as we know know it will be very different and back to the way it was in the early days of Christianity. Many denominations are shrivelling up. Mega churches are not the answer. Francis Chan is worth checking out on that front.
 
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Aussie Pete

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The problem of man is not just that he sins. He is dead. That's why Jesus came to give us life. Adam missed out on eternal life because he chose the forbidden fruit. Lord Jesus came to reverse the blight that Adam inflicted on the human race. Sin is just a part of the equation.
 
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Petros2015

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Aren't both the unredeemed resurrected and given new bodies before judgement?
I don't expect the bodies of either to look 'human' at that time
I'm pretty sure we'll know who was a child of who and who belongs on the right and the left.
"Humanity" is a temporary thing, I feel, kind of like a larva caterpillar that cocoons itself in death and awakens as a beautiful butterfly.



Or, not.



At any rate, I know what I want to wake as, and I know where it belongs.
 
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Saint Steven

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Are you a universalist?
Not in the sense of a Unitarian Universalism. There is Christian Universalism. The current preferred term is Universal Restorationism.
 
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Saint Steven

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But maybe more imposing is the mere fact that God is just. Whatever the reason(s) for why we got this way (and the Bible tells us what they are) ...
Indeed. We were set up in the garden. No one asked for this. Is that what you call justice?
 
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Saint Steven

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No, I'm not SDA.

Adam walked with God in the garden. That relationship was broken when sin was introduced to the equation.
 
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Saint Steven

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I wonder what would have happened if Eve ate but Adam refused.
 
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Saint Steven

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So, God painted himself into a corner? There he sits wringing his hands asking how he ended up in this predicament? "My, oh my. What ever will I do now"? As if he didn't see this coming. I don't think so.

And God is unbiased, you say? How could that be? And God feels sympathy for those he will send to hell? As if his hand was forced. Thus freeing him from responsibility for the kind of hell you claim he created?
 
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Saint Steven

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These verses sum it up nicely.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
 
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Mark Quayle

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No, I'm not SDA.

Adam walked with God in the garden. That relationship was broken when sin was introduced to the equation.
Ok. That's a relief!

Do you think after this life we will be restored to the same sort of relationship as Adam had with God? Or did God have something better in mind when he made mankind?
 
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Mark Quayle

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Indeed. We were set up in the garden. No one asked for this. Is that what you call justice?
You think something unexpected happened in the Garden? God had to invoke plan B?

Nobody asked to be born. Nobody asked to be born with a sinful nature. God didn't consult anyone nor ask permission to do what he does. He OWNS us.

Just? Yes indeed it is just. Do you honestly believe we deserve something? Do ants and worms?
 
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Saint Steven

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Do you think after this life we will be restored to the same sort of relationship as Adam had with God? Or did God have something better in mind when he made mankind?
Something like that. But Adam was the product of God's original creation. Not sure we could go back to that level of "innocence". I see it as most people see heaven, but everyone will be there eventually. Including the fallen angels. All will be restored. No one will have loved ones stuck in a forever burning hell. And those that we consider to have been the worst human beings will be marvelously restored and reconciled to those they have harmed. We will have all the time we need to make this happen.
 
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Mark Quayle

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My point is that that level of innocence is not the plan God had in mind for his particular people --the Church, the Elect.
 
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Saint Steven

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No. What happened in the garden was Plan A. Humankind needed to fall for the plan of redemption to play out. Which will not dead-end in hell, but rather come full circle.

God created us with deep longings and desires. We are precious in his sight. So, yes, we are very deserving. Jesus said the thief (enemy) comes to kill, steal and destroy. But he came that we might have life to the full.

To claim that we don't deserve anything is to agree with the thief. (enemy)
 
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Saint Steven

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My point is that that level of innocence is not the plan God had in mind for his particular people --the Church, the Elect.
I thought we were discussing the afterlife.

Saint Steven said:
Something like that. But Adam was the product of God's original creation. Not sure we could go back to that level of "innocence". I see it as most people see heaven, but everyone will be there eventually. Including the fallen angels. All will be restored. No one will have loved ones stuck in a forever burning hell. And those that we consider to have been the worst human beings will be marvelously restored and reconciled to those they have harmed. We will have all the time we need to make this happen.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Did I say something that made you think I'm not discussing the afterlife?
 
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Mark Quayle

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God owes nobody anything.

But besides that, we have all sinned, and all of our hearts are at enmity with him unless regenerated. Read Romans 9 again and see what precious in his sight means, as opposed to chosen for one purpose or for another purpose. God has that right. He owes us nothing.
 
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Saint Steven

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I used to believe that. But it raises some questions. And it may be an aspect of "total depravity" that you are speaking forth. But if you are taking that past our inability to save ourselves, I think you have gone too far with it. It doesn't mean that we are worthless to God.

At face value "God owes nobody anything" is true. But what can we EXPECT from him based on his character?

Matthew 12:20
A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out, till he has brought justice through to victory.
 
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Saint Steven

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Did I say something that made you think I'm not discussing the afterlife?
Yes. You made a statement about the Church (capital C) and the Elect. (those God chose to not go to "hell"?) Which means everyone else was elected/predestined for eternal conscious torment. (what you call justice - because "God owes nobody anything")

Mark Quayle said:
My point is that that level of innocence is not the plan God had in mind for his particular people --the Church, the Elect.
 
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Aussie Pete

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Ok. That's a relief!

Do you think after this life we will be restored to the same sort of relationship as Adam had with God? Or did God have something better in mind when he made mankind?
Adam's relationship with God was incomplete because Adam himself was incomplete. That's why the Tree of Life was in the middle of the Garden as well as the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. If Adam had eaten from the Tree of Life, history would have been entirely different.

Christians have something Adam never had. We are alive in Christ. If we will depend on Lord Jesus to be our life, we will have all the resources of God mad available to us through Him. If we choose to live out of our own cleverness, talents, wit and self will, we will miss God's best.
 
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