Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

Saint Steven · Jan 5, 2021

sparow said:
At this place in scripture, there is nothing wrong or disagreed; the problem is with your reading of it, English may not be your first language.

Wow.
First you claim my scriptures were lifted out of context. (a common knee-jerk reaction) So I asked you to show me what was in the context that made these verses not mean what they plainly say. You responded by indicating that the rest of the Bible disagrees with these scriptures. Now you question whether English is my first language. LOL

Will you concede the debate at this point? Or would like to add another insult?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Nothing wrong with the scripture verses? (you say)
There is most certainly something WRONG with these scripture verses if you claim the rest of the Bible disagrees with them. Right?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What is it about the context that makes these verses false in your opinion?

Saint Steven said: ↑
What do you make of these?

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

Saint Steven · Jan 5, 2021

WebersHome said:
Universalists have trouble making their pet verses fit together with many other verses in the Bible because they have bent and twisted their favorite verses out of shape, so to speak, by forcing them to mean things never intended by the authors.

Universalists are at a disadvantage in using a Damnationist translation to support Universalism. We are fortunate that any Universalists texts slipped through the gauntlet. The canon (collection voted on) translation came from the western/Latin church, not from the eastern/Greek church.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff writes :

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

sparow · Jan 5, 2021

WebersHome said:
.

Universalists are typically very good at reading the Bible, and adept at quoting it; but they are not very good at piecing it together.

• 2Tim 2:15 . . Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

The Greek word translated "rightly dividing" is orthotomeo (or-thot-om-eh'-o) which means: to make a straight cut-- as opposed to a crooked cut --or a cut that misses the line and yields a piece of material that's either too long, too short, or the wrong contour; thus resulting in a finished product whose pieces won't join properly when it comes time for assembly.

The gist of 2Tim 2:15 means to piece the Bible together so that it all fits perfectly from first to last, like a well made armoire instead of a hastily constructed rabbit hutch.

Universalists have trouble making their pet verses fit together with many other verses in the Bible because they have bent and twisted their favorite verses out of shape, so to speak, by forcing them to mean things never intended by the authors.
_

You are not addressing what I have said; Universalists have abrogated the Law and have fabricated their own religion; they wear their own garments and eat their own food and use only God's name.

Saint Steven · Jan 6, 2021

sparow said:
You are not addressing what I have said; Universalists have abrogated the Law and have fabricated their own religion; they wear their own garments and eat their own food and use only God's name.

This is not correct.
There is biblical support for all three conflicting doctrinal positions for the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism
None of these have "fabricated their own religion", as you claim.

I find it interesting that Damnationists and Annihilationists tolerate each other, but neither is able to tolerate Universalism. If there is any fabricating going on, I would say those who describe our loving heavenly Father as an angry volcano god should get some credit.

sparow · Jan 6, 2021

Saint Steven said:
This is not correct.
There is biblical support for all three conflicting doctrinal positions for the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism
None of these have "fabricated their own religion", as you claim.

I find it interesting that Damnationists and Annihilationists tolerate each other, but neither is able to tolerate Universalism. If there is any fabricating going on, I would say those who describe our loving heavenly Father as an angry volcano god should get some credit.

These three are all fabricated; I doubt that they are based on scripture, but even if they were, all false Christian doctrine is based on scripture as though the scriptures were not good enough.

My comments on universalism referred to Catholicism, the mixing of all religions into one blob under the authority of the Pope. Catholic means universal.

Saint Steven · Jan 7, 2021

sparow said:
These three are all fabricated; I doubt that they are based on scripture, but even if they were, all false Christian doctrine is based on scripture as though the scriptures were not good enough.

My comments on universalism referred to Catholicism, the mixing of all religions into one blob under the authority of the Pope. Catholic means universal.

You are operating out of ignorance. I can help.

However, you are correct in saying that Catholic means universal, usually in reference to the Church. This comes directly from the Creed. Which makes Protestants nervous until they understand the archaic language used in the Creed.

If you believe in a forever burning hell, you are a Damnationist. If you believe that God will incinerate "the damned" out of existence, then you are an Annihilationist. If you believe that God will restore all of creation, then you are a Universal Restorationist. Take your pick. All of these positions have biblical support.

Saint Steven said: ↑
This is not correct.
There is biblical support for all three conflicting doctrinal positions for the final judgment:
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Universal Restorationism
None of these have "fabricated their own religion", as you claim.

I find it interesting that Damnationists and Annihilationists tolerate each other, but neither is able to tolerate Universalism. If there is any fabricating going on, I would say those who describe our loving heavenly Father as an angry volcano god should get some credit.

Religiot · Jan 16, 2021

WebersHome said:
.
It is a terrible, awful tragedy that so many people end up in Hell simply because they didn't believe Christ's crucifixion is an adequate retribution for their sins; and also that God is fully agreeable to shredding the indictment He was compiling against them listing all the bad things they ever did, and/or they will ever do, in thought, word, and deed.

• 2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ; not counting men's sins against them.

The Greek word translated "counting" is logizomai (log-id'-zom-ahee) which means to take an inventory. Bear with me while I flesh this out a bit.

Rev 20:11-15 depicts an enormous courtroom scene-- sometimes referred to as the great white throne event --wherein books will be opened. The word is plural because there's a book being kept for each individual. Were a redeemed sinner's book to be opened, there would be no entries in so it would appear as if they have never been anything but 100% innocent. For example:

Let's say, hypothetically, that a redeemed Charles Manson is summoned to appear and a bailiff delivers his book to the Judge. Upon examining Charles' book, the Judge would have to acquit Mr. Manson because there would be no entries in his book for the Judge to charge him with.

Now of course many of us from back in the twentieth century know what a degenerate scum bag Charles was in life; but no matter. Were he redeemed, none of Charles' scuminess would be recorded in his book, viz: he would not be required to answer for the gruesome murder of Sharon Tate and her unborn child.

As outrageous, and as an intolerable miscarriage of justice as that may seem; it serves to give a pretty good idea of just how effective Christ's crucifixion is as an adequate retribution for people's sins.
_

ANSWER: Anyone who repents to obey the Lord.

Lukaris · Jan 16, 2021

The Lord says those who have done good will be saved and those who have done evil will not. See: John 5:22-30 etc.

Christians who confess the Lord & keep His commandments are saved by grace through faith. See: Matthew 19:16-19, John 14:15-18, Romans 10:9-13, Ephesians 2:8-10 etc.

Non Christians will be judged by however virtuous or not they lived. See: Ezekiel 18:4-9, Romans 2 etc.

It is God Who will judge of course ( Matthew 7:1-12) and the Lord calls us to pray for ourselves and our neighbor ( Matthew 6:1-15, Matthew 22:36-40 etc.).

Saint Steven · Jul 27, 2021

WebersHome said:
It is a terrible, awful tragedy that so many people end up in Hell simply because they didn't believe Christ's crucifixion is an adequate retribution for their sins; and also that God is fully agreeable to shredding the indictment He was compiling against them listing all the bad things they ever did, and/or they will ever do, in thought, word, and deed.

• 2Cor 5:19 . . God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ; not counting men's sins against them. ...

Amazing that you chose a verse that supports Ultimate Redemption (UR) in your OP. But let's review the whole sentence by including verse eighteen. See below.

Here we see God "reconciling the world to himself in Christ". So, who goes to hell if God is reconciling the world to himself in Christ? Will this task go uncompleted?

Instead of taking this scripture at face value, other scriptures are quickly gathered to disprove what it plainly says.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NIV
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Mark Quayle · Jul 27, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Amazing that you chose a verse that supports Ultimate Redemption (UR) in your OP. But let's review the whole sentence by including verse eighteen. See below.

Here we see God "reconciling the world to himself in Christ". So, who goes to hell if God is reconciling the world to himself in Christ? Will this task go uncompleted?

Instead of taking this scripture at face value, other scriptures are quickly gathered to disprove what it plainly says.

2 Corinthians 5:18-19 NIV
All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Why would you have a problem with bringing other verses to bear?

Saint Steven · Jul 27, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
Why would you have a problem with bringing other verses to bear?

I don't, unless they are brought to bear to sweep the first one aside. Hopefully you have a problem with that as well.

If two verses are in conflict, which one is right?
1) Your favorite.
2) My favorite.
3) They are both right. (because they are both scripture)

Petros2015 · Jul 27, 2021

Lukaris said:
It is God Who will judge of course ( Matthew 7:1-12)

Is it? John 5:22-23

22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

Petros2015 · Jul 27, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I find it interesting that Damnationists and Annihilationists tolerate each other, but neither is able to tolerate Universalism. If there is any fabricating going on, I would say those who describe our loving heavenly Father as an angry volcano god should get some credit.

Well I'd love to believe that but then...

22 “As the new heavens and the new earth that I make will endure before me,” declares the Lord, “so will your name and descendants endure. 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Exactly whose dead bodies are those...?

Saint Steven · Jul 27, 2021

Petros2015 said:
Exactly whose dead bodies are those...?

Who do you claim that they are?

Mark Quayle · Jul 27, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I don't, unless they are brought to bear to sweep the first one aside. Hopefully you have a problem with that as well.

If two verses are in conflict, which one is right?
1) Your favorite.
2) My favorite.
3) They are both right. (because they are both scripture)

4) They are not in conflict.
But why only two? If the many are brought to bear to sweep aside one's interpretation or use of one or two, is that a problem?

Saint Steven · Jul 27, 2021

Mark Quayle said:
4) They are not in conflict.
But why only two? If the many are brought to bear to sweep aside one's interpretation or use of one or two, is that a problem?

If it was a matter of one verse "interpretation", that might make sense. But in the case of the supporting scripture for all three doctrines of the final judgment, we are dealing with something considerable more difficult.

Those who oppose UR will typically claim that our supporting scriptures do not mean what they plainly say because of other scriptures that support their view.

Here's a good example below. The argument typically focuses on the definition of the words "all" and "many". (the many)

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Lukaris · Jul 27, 2021

Petros2015 said:
Is it? John 5:22-23

22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit. One God, The Trinity. He is still the Judge and Who defines Himself as He sees fit.

Petros2015 · Jul 27, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Who do you claim that they are?

I would say they belong to those for whom Universalism did not apply.

Saint Steven · Jul 28, 2021

Petros2015 said:
I would say they belong to those for whom Universalism did not apply.

The description seems to be of physical bodies. What do you make of that? Do we have physical bodies in the afterlife?

Mark Quayle · Jul 28, 2021

Saint Steven said:
The description seems to be of physical bodies. What do you make of that? Do we have physical bodies in the afterlife?

What we consider physical is only a vapor compared to the physical of the next.

We look at everything backwards.

Who Doesn't Go To Hell?

You can call me Steve

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Orthodox Christian

You can call me Steve

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

You can call me Steve

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

You can call me Steve

Orthodox Christian

Well-Known Member

You can call me Steve

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency