Who do you stand with?

[Alexander Nevsky]

We stand with the fathers of the Holy Mountain, who condemn the secular innovations that give rise to the thought among the people that their ‘leaders’ may already be apostates.

We stand with the faithful Orthodox of Greece and Cyprus, who do not want what is alien to the Tradition.

We stand with the courageous confessors of Romania, who condemn the two apostate bishops who dragged their Church through the mire when they concelebrated with Uniats.

We stand with Patriarch Pavle, Metropolitan Amphilochy and all the suffering people of Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. Their sufferings are magnified by US and EU adventurism and are now insulted by the governments of Montenegro and Macedonia, which have been bribed by the EU into accepting an ‘independent’ Kosovo.

We stand with Metropolitan Vladimir of Kiev who is fighting the nationalist/Uniat hydra in the Ukraine.

We stand with Fr Dimitry Sidor in Transcarpathia, who suffers from the persecutions of the Ukrainian secret services in his defence of the Carpatho-Russian people.

We stand with Metropolitan Kornily of Tallinn, the head of the canonical Church in Estonia, who was for thirteen years a prisoner of conscience in Soviet times and is now persecuted by a schismatic foreign bishop, who does not even speak the languages used in Estonia.

We stand with the faithful people of Georgia and Ossetia, who have been betrayed by the puppet in power in Tbilisi, who is backed by the same NATO that bombed Serbia.

We stand with the faithful people of the OLTR in France, who are fighting to preserve their traditional worship from modernism.

We stand with Bishop Elisei in England who is repairing the damage caused by the unfaithful.

Those who oppose us in the Orthodox world are backed by their wealthy supporters in the US State Department, Brussels and the Vatican (though most good Roman Catholics are unaware of what is done in their name).

Who do you stand with? Churches nourished by the blood of New Martyrs or shells that drown in irrelevance?

Source: Orthodox England Website

 

[Emmanuel-A]

We stand with the faithful people of the OLTR in France, who are fighting to preserve their traditional worship from modernism.

Though I appreciate Fr Andrew Philips website and agree with him on a number of points, I tend do disagree with the simplistic vision he has that can be found on numerous posts by him, like :
Russian exarchate (under EP) in England and France = modernists
Moscow Patriarchate = tradition

This is more complicated. A number of people (some of them in OLTR) confuse traditional worship with russian identity and slavonic, and many people in the exarchate are not modernists, they're in it because it's the only jurisdiction in western Europe that truly promotes local languages and welcomes people from various backgrounds.

 

[gzt]

Emmanuel: subtlety is often one of the first casualties when one decides to "take a stand".

 

[EricTheRed]

People have different opinions? Bribed by the state department! or those evil catholics!

Geeze...

 

[Alexander Nevsky]

Though I appreciate Fr Andrew Philips website and agree with him on a number of points, I tend do disagree with the simplistic vision he has that can be found on numerous posts by him, like :
Russian exarchate (under EP) in England and France = modernists
Moscow Patriarchate = tradition

This is more complicated. A number of people (some of them in OLTR) confuse traditional worship with russian identity and slavonic, and many people in the exarchate are not modernists, they're in it because it's the only jurisdiction in western Europe that truly promotes local languages and welcomes people from various backgrounds.

I do agree with you Emmanuel. Things are more complicated, but i can also understand what father Andrew was talking about when he was refering to 'modernists'...

 

[ProScribe]

I stand with the peaceful pacifists who support racial prejudice.

I stand with the military servicemen whose weapons are waterguns and nerf toys.

I stand with the violent anarchist who volunteers for the people helping people community.

 

[Greg the byzantine]

Hmm I stand with the angel's and saints singing in unison the Thrice Holy Hymn in front of the the Altar of the One True God. I think that is sufficient.

 

[Philothei]

We stand for injustices that are done to our Orthodox brethren .. what I do not stand by is the political agendas that sometimes are hidden in between those lines. And yes ethnic does not mean politics neither does orthodox is always not driven by personal or individual agendas.... It is much complicated as you just said. And yes Unia was and is a big problem I agree ....Sadly to say these are cases where agendas prevail instead of logic, and above all faith and focus in the message of our Lord Jesus Christ.........

 

[Michael G]

I would watch the "we stand with" statements. The only thing I will dogmatically say I stand with are doctrinal issues.

I stand with The Didache in saying abortion and euthanasia are intrinsically evil.

I stand with St. John of Damascus in saying that icons should be displayed everywhere they possibly can so as to constantly raise the mind to Christ.

 

[Annoula]

if you stand with the Holy Fathers of Mount Athos and the Orthodox Church of Greece and Cyprus... sorry to say .. but you wouldn't state FYROM as "Macedonia".

i know that my post is irrelevant to the thread, but i just can't swallow the "Macedonian" propaganda that is all around the world. now i see it in Orthodox people and it's very hard for me.

i am sorry, i don't want to offend anyone but it's so unfair...

 

[Annoula]

sorry double post.

 

[Philothei]

We stand with Patriarch Pavle, Metropolitan Amphilochy and all the suffering people of Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia. Their sufferings are magnified by US and EU adventurism and are now insulted by the governments of Montenegro and Macedonia, which have been bribed by the EU into accepting an ‘independent’ Kosovo.

my bad I failed to see that one...Thanks Annoula...

 

[E.C.]

I stand with the other people in the back left corner of the church. I stand there because that's where the visitors typically migrate and it is interesting to observe their reactions to stuff (yes, I am terrible at times ).

I stand with those that don't make their social circle out of meaningless jurisdictions. We are all one Church, but many languages. In fact, at my Thanksgiving meal tonight at a family friends house, it was comprised thusly: the host's family which is Greek-American, a retired chaplain priest and his family who are all of Hispanic descent, a Lebanese couple with their children and mother from Lebanon and of course, myself, my dad and my brother who are all just plain old Orthodox Americans (minus the brother, but he has his own issues).

I stand with those that pray for peace and equal representation where it is needed most. The Palestinian Christians in the Holy Land have been slowly kicked out due to the polarization between Israeli/Jew and Palestinian/Muslim (similar to the Liberal/Democrat and Conservative/Republican divide in the US) and who suffer day to day persecution by both extremists on the Israeli side and the Palestinian side.

I stand with those who do not get political in the church. I have been to my church longer than I have been Orthodox and the only time I can recall anything political being discussed inside the church itself and during Divine Liturgy is before this last election when Fr. talked about I-1000 which, if passed, would allow euthanasia in the state of Washington. Even then, all he really said was "this is how the Church views suicide" and advised that those who were voting to 'vote your conscience'.

I stand with those who do not immediately caste away others simply because of an ethnic or religious background. You never know, that Turk hanging in the back of the Greek church may actually be Orthodox. Or maybe that person with the headscarf on the bus sitting across from you is not a Muslim extremist, but an Orthodox Christian that would make Fr. Vasily of TheOnionDome proud.

I stand with those that don't make mountains out of molehills just for the sake of mountain making and/or riot inciting, but instead do so because that mountain will establish some sort of common good like result.

I stand with those who aspire for peace. Both on the global scale and local.

 

[Alexander Nevsky]

if you stand with the Holy Fathers of Mount Athos and the Orthodox Church of Greece and Cyprus... sorry to say .. but you wouldn't state FYROM as "Macedonia".

i know that my post is irrelevant to the thread, but i just can't swallow the "Macedonian" propaganda that is all around the world. now i see it in Orthodox people and it's very hard for me.

i am sorry, i don't want to offend anyone but it's so unfair...

Dear Annoula I can see your point here. Being a Greek myself I do not find it offensive to call the inhabitants of FYROM Macedonians. This is how they define themselves. Besides the geographical region where they live is indeed part of the area known in antiquity as Macedonia. On their side they should not also deny the right of Greek-Macedonians to define themselves as such. After all we should never forget that the Roman Empire was a multiethnic Empire and that modern day nationalisms are in fact hostile to the Orthodox tradition. I can understand your discomfort about the ‘Macedonian’ issue, but lets not resort to nationalism which can divide Christian Orthodox even more.

 

[Annoula]

Dear Alexander,
i know it's not the appropriate place to discuss the issue, but if i say i am macedonian (in fact i was born in the greek macedonia) most of the people will assume i am from FYROM. maybe we could say slav-macedons, greek-macedons, and boulgarian-macedons.

apart from that, i am with you and your posts.
but to act and behave the way you describe means true orthodox-ascetic way of living. something very difficult. i struggle for that and rarely succeed...

 

[theoforos]

Dear Alexander,
i know it's not the appropriate place to discuss the issue, but if i say i am macedonian (in fact i was born in the greek macedonia) most of the people will assume i am from FYROM. maybe we could say slav-macedons, greek-macedons, and boulgarian-macedons.

I'm not too familiar with the dispute about the use of the name Macedonia, but it made me think about a similar situation closer to me. There is an area called Karelia (where my grandmother came from), part of which is in present day Finland and major part in present day Russia. Confusions are not uncommon when someone speaks about Karelia or Karelians. Often it's not clear if one is speaking about the area on the Finnish side of the border or on the Russian side of the border. The situation is complicated by the fact that the borders have been moved back and forth over the centuries, the last move being after the WWII. After WWII a significant part of the Finnish Karelia was ceded to the Soviet Union, and there are Finns who think that area should be given back an refer to it as Karelia. Russians again, when they hear those claims, think the Finns are saying all of the Russian Karelia should be given to Finland, which is not what they are demanding because most of the Russian Karelia has never been part of Finland. The easiest way to get around is to speak about Finnish Karelia and Russian Karelia. However, in Finland we often speak about Northern Karelia and Southern Karelia when we are referring to the area that belongs to Finland, about Karelian Isthmus and Ladoga Karelia when we are referring to the areas lost to Soviet Union after WWII, and about Eastern Karelia when we are referring to the area that never was part of Finland. Also this can be confusing for Russians because Northern Karelia for them sounds like you are talking about the northern part of the area Finns call Eastern Karelia. But somehow we just get along.

So if we can get along with two areas with the same name, maybe two Macedonias could also be possible?

 

[theoforos]

We stand with Metropolitan Kornily of Tallinn, the head of the canonical Church in Estonia, who was for thirteen years a prisoner of conscience in Soviet times and is now persecuted by a schismatic foreign bishop, who does not even speak the languages used in Estonia.

He speaks at least Russian. I've heard him converse in fluent and well pronounced Russian with an Estonian, which probably means that his Estonian could be better, but anyway, he speaks at least one of the languages used in Estonia.

 

[Rkman]

Dear Annoula I can see your point here. Being a Greek myself I do not find it offensive to call the inhabitants of FYROM Macedonians. This is how they define themselves. Besides the geographical region where they live is indeed part of the area known in antiquity as Macedonia. On their side they should not also deny the right of Greek-Macedonians to define themselves as such. After all we should never forget that the Roman Empire was a multiethnic Empire and that modern day nationalisms are in fact hostile to the Orthodox tradition. I can understand your discomfort about the ‘Macedonian’ issue, but lets not resort to nationalism which can divide Christian Orthodox even more.

The problem with so called 'Macedonians' is that they don't just claim Greek name for their country they also claim Greek-Macedonian culture and history as their own. They even say St. Cyrill and Metodius are their own. Of course Greeks are angry.
I don't think case of Karelia is similar to this issue.
As for nationalism people of FYROM are already divided from canonical Orthodox church and Christians. They without shame prosecute canonical Serbian OC.

 

[Philothei]

Dear Alexander,
i know it's not the appropriate place to discuss the issue, but if i say i am macedonian (in fact i was born in the greek macedonia) most of the people will assume i am from FYROM. maybe we could say slav-macedons, greek-macedons, and boulgarian-macedons.

apart from that, i am with you and your posts.
but to act and behave the way you describe means true orthodox-ascetic way of living. something very difficult. i struggle for that and rarely succeed...

'

I agree with Annoula... and to add...
Since this thread is not political in nature I will respect the OP in saying that since he is not posting this thread for political discussion he is just expressing his own opinion. Although it should be noted that his opinion does not represent or shares in common with all Greek Orthodox share. Just because we are in opposing opinions that by no means should be interpreted that we are less "orthodox minded" or not "for unity" or "not for peace".

Ethnicism is apart from religion. In the USA we have all different kinds of political expressions the same way a Greek patriot should not be treated any differently in regard to Orthdoxy.

 

[Michael G]

Ethnicism is apart from religion.

Exactly!!! Ethnicity has nothing to do with Orthodoxy, at all. Yes it might be the lived experience of many Orthodox who have emigrated to the United States, but at the same time those of us who don't have one drop of Eastern European or Arabic blood in our systems are just as Orthodox as those who do. If I refuse to take a stand on these issues because in fact they do not effect my life in Christ then I am no more and no less Orthodox than people who do.