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Who Do You Say He Is?

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by CHRISTgospel, Jul 18, 2002.

  1. CHRISTgospel

    CHRISTgospel Member

    105
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    WHO DO YOU SAY HE IS?

    As recorded in the synoptic gospels, Jesus asked his disciples, "whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" Their reply varied and in turn Jesus asked them directly, "But whom say ye that I am?" Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, "Blessed are thou, Simon Bar-Jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 16:13-17)

    Please note carefully who Peter said Jesus was. First Peter said Jesus is the Christ. What does "Christ" mean? Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible #5547 shows that Christ means "anointed, i.e. the Messiah." Let us look at what Luke tells us in the book of Acts, chapter 10, verse 38. (Acts 10:38)

    How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.


    When reading this verse do you clearly see that Jesus is a separate being from God? This writer certainly sees the separation. Please note that God, the one and only true God, Jesus' Father and our Father if we are called to be His children, was with Jesus. Jesus is NOT God. God did not come AS Jesus. God dwells IN Jesus, Jesus was in the form of God.

    The Prophet Isaiah foretold a virgin would conceive and bear a son, and would call his name Immanuel, which means "God with us." Again, how did God come to be with us? He came to be with us through His only begotten son Jesus the Christ, a man anointed by God the Father as we just read. Please take notice of those key words "in the form of". The words form and image are interchangeable.


    Phil 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,


    Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.


    Pay close attention to what Peter tells the multitude on the day of Pentecost. "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know. (Acts 2:22)

    Again, we are talking about two different beings here. Jesus is one person. And God is another being. They are one only in spirit (mind and purpose). If you were taught as a child, as this writer was taught, that Jesus was God in the flesh, that God came down in human form, you have been taught to believe another Jesus. For the Bible clearly tells us that Jesus was a man anointed by God. And that God is NOT A MAN.

    Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

    What does this verse say to you?

    2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

    To this writer it states that Jesus, is Jesus in the flesh. It does not say "God as coming in the flesh" nor does it say "The Most High God as coming in the flesh" or "The Father coming in the flesh." It says many deceivers, who do not acknowledge JESUS CHRIST AS COMING IN THE FLESH, have gone out into the world. Any such person [that does NOT acknowledge and accept this fact] is the deceiver and the antichrist. Pretty strong words, yes?

    So who is this Jesus that God anointed? Did the prophets speak about this man that God would use as His agent to speak to His people?

    Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his [Jesus] mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. [19]And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

    Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

    This is speaking of the coming kingdom of God/heaven - the millennium reign - when Christ returns [The message of the Kingdom has to do with the land promised to Abraham - promises not yet fulfilled. It concerns the reestablishment of the throne of David and the permanent restoration and expansion of the fortunes of the nation of Israel.] 3 [In order for restoration to take place, in order for something to be restored it must have been in existence. For example, if God decided to take his people to heaven that would not be restitution. Since man never had a home in heaven, he could not have lost it, and Jesus could not restore it. Yet Scripture clearly teaches restitution.] (Acts 3:19-21)

    [6] In his days (when Christ rules on earth) Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely(this certainly is not the case at this present time in history - Christians are losing their lives for their testimony so we can not be living in the millennium as some believe we are): and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Hebrews 1:1-3 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being [form, image], sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

    In reply to the question Jesus directly asked his disciples, Peter, as we have read, stated that Jesus is the Christ. Peter also said that Jesus is the Son of the living God. Notice that Peter did not say Jesus was God as so many church goers believe to be the truth. No where in the Bible does it state "God the Son" nor do you find anyone claiming Jesus is God.

    This paper ends, as it began, with the question, Who Do You Say He is? Do away with man's doctrine that has you believing in another gospel - another Jesus, and believe the words of the Christ: Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    by Sondra Treadway
     
    We teamed up with Faith Counseling. Can they help you today?
  2. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

    +4
    Christian
    Pretty good!
     
  3. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    Ah, we're going to take up this lie again, are we? :(

    IF this were the only verse, IF it weren't taken out of context, IF Jesus hadn't said over and over other places in the Gospels that HE was God and that he and the Father are one, then your thesis might be believable.

    But when you read the rest of the Bible, you can see the falseness of it.

    I am saddened for you. May God open your eyes to the truth, because the truth will set you free!
     
  4. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    Married
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    Umm...lamb..that was posted about a month ago..read your dates ;)
     
  5. Brian45

    Brian45 Senior Member

    +151
    Christian
    Single
  6. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    But Jesus doesn't say over and over in other places int he Gospels that He was God. Nowhere does Jesus say "I am God." As pointed out above, He says He is the Son of God.
     
  7. ZiSunka

    ZiSunka It means 'yellow dog'

    +276
    Christian
    How about, "I and the Father are one."

    or "Before Abraham was I AM."

    or "He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?"

    What do you think he was saying in all those places?

    Have you actually read the ENTIRE Gospels, or just bits and pieces? :scratch:
     
  8. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    We are to be one as Jesus and the Father are, just read John 17.

    Verse 11 - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    And verses22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
    23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

    Does this mean that if we are one like Jesus and God were one, then we will be God. I don't think so.
    If looking at this phrase, you take "I Am" to mean God, then Jesus is saying that before Abraham was, God was. If you take "I am" to mean Jesus, then he is not saying he is God.
    But you need to read the verses leading up to this verse to understand what he was talking about. The Pharisees were arguing with Jesus about how they were the children of Abraham and were already free. They then accuse Jesus of having a devil because he spoke of those who kept his sayings would not see death.
    When he spoke of this he was speaking of the resurrection and second coming when he will set up the Kingdom. At that time the seed of Abraham would inherit the land forever. Abraham knew that that day would come, and he was glad about it.
    When they ask Jesus about his seeing Abraham, Jesus answers by telling them that before Abraham was, Jesus was in the plan of God as being the salvation of Abraham's seed.
    Jesus is the perfect reflection of God. He lived the life that God wanted him to. When we live as Jesus and God want us to, then others can see Jesus and God in us. Does that mean that we are Jesus or God? No. But they still see Jesus or God in us.
    Perhaps I should ask you the same question. Do you just read the verses that show what you want, or do you read and understand the surrounding/supporting verses?
     
  9. judd1s

    judd1s Willing servant

    17
    +0
    Speaking the truth in love

    I apologize for not having references, so bear with me or help me out if you can

    The Bible says that there are none righteous, and it also says all have sinned...

    If Jesus was just a man indwelled by God he would fall into the category of unrighteous sinner.

    If this is true we have no hope

    Our salvation demands a perfect sacrifice, only God is perfect, only "God-with-skin-on" (Jesus) could die in our place

    I don't like to argue, but I like to pray

    I pray that God will let his truth be known to all who seek it, including myself
     
  10. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
    Eastern Orthodox
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    Huh?  Why could there not be the third option that He was calling Himself the same name as God called Himself in the OT?  You have not shown why He could not have been saying He was God while He was also saying that He was around during and before Abraham was around. 




    Huh? Why did He not just say that then?  He did not say i was in God's plan before Abraham was born although all of us would agree with that.  This is what it says.


    John 8:53-59
    53 "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out {to be?} "
    54 Jesus answered, "If I glorify Myself, My glory is nothing; it is My Father who glorifies Me, of whom you say, "He is our God';
    55 and you have not come to know Him, but I know Him; and if I say that I do not know Him, I will be a liar like you, but I do know Him and keep His word.
    56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw {it} and was glad."
    57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
    58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
    59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
    (NAU)

    I do not see where He says that He was in God's plan before Abraham.  In fact the Pharisees were speaking about His age and that there was no way He could of seen Abraham.  And why did He use "I Am?"  Why not "I was?"  No I think it is clear that He was saying that He is eternal. 

    Thisa is especially clear when you read john 1


    John 1:1-15
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 He was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
    5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
    6 There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.
    7 He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.
    8 He was not the Light, but {he came} to testify about the Light.
    9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.
    10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
    11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
    12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, {even} to those who believe in His name,
    13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
    14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
    15 John testified about Him and cried out, saying, "This was He of whom I said, "He who comes after me has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me."'
    (NAU)

    It seems very clear that Jesus is Eternal andsince He is eternal He is also God. For God is the only thing that can be eternal.  Anything else has to be a creation of the Father. 
     
  11. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    Yes, all have sinned. But as we can see in the following verses, there is a way out of that sin.

    As you can see, sin came by one man's disobedience, and likewise, all can be made righteous by the obedience of one man. That man with the grace of God was Jesus. Through God's grace Jesus was born the perfect sacrifice, and by living and doing the will of his Father, remained that perfect sacrifice until the end.
     
  12. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    I am. Ego eimi.
    Was John the Baptist saying that God was not worthy to bear the shoes of Jesus?
    Was the Centurion saying that God was not worthy to have Jesus at his house?
    Was Pilate saying that God was innocent of the blood of Jesus?
    Was Zacharias calling God an old man? Is Gabriel God?

    In all of these verses, as well as others in the New Testement, the phrase ego eimi is used. But the phrase does not mean God.
     
  13. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
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    US-Republican
    Hmm.  You know what is really weird here.  All of those verses you quoted someone is speaking in the present tense. 

    However Jesus was not speaking of the present or was He? 

    It might make sense if we look at the greek word for "am" a little closer.

    1510  eimi (i-mee');

    the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):

    Hmm that is weird because I could of sworn He was speaking of a past event.  Let's review the verses again because to see if Jesus was speaking about the present or past.   


    John 8:56-59
    56 "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw {it} and was glad."
    57 So the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
    58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am."
    59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.
    (NAU)

    He was speaking of the past. Yes?  So why would He use a present tense form of a verb "am" at the end of His answer?

      Would it make sense to say to my younger wife that "Before you were born I am?"  I do not think so but that is what Jesus said.   But clearly Jesus would not have mixed up His tenses unless He was trying to make a point.  (Note I am not saying He made a mistake)  He was not saying that He was before Abraham.  He was saying more.  He was saying that He is eternal.  So that is why it is used in the present tense. 

    Here is an excerpt from a commentary to support what i have said.


    John 8:51-59  PP35

    &nbsp;[3.] our Saviour gives an effectual answer to this cavil, by a solemn assertion of his own seniority even to Abraham himself (v. 58): "Verily, verily, I say unto you; I do not only say it in private to my own disciples, who will be sure to say as I say, but to you my enemies and persecutors; I say it to your faces, take it how you will: Before Abraham was, I am;" prin Abraam genesthai, ego eimi, Before Abraham was made or born, I am. The change of the word is observable, and bespeaks Abraham a creature, and himself the Creator; well therefore might he make himself greater than Abraham. Before Abraham he was, First, As God. I am, is the name of God <EXO. 3:14>; it denotes his self-existence; he does not say, I was, but I am, for he is the first and the last, immutably the same <REV. 1:8>; thus he was not only before Abraham, but before all worlds, <JN 8:23 Prov. 1:1;>. Secondly, As Mediator. He was the appointed Messiah, long before Abraham; the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world <REV. 13:8>, the channel of conveyance of light, life, and love from God to man. This supposes his divine nature, that he is the same in himself from eternity <HEB. 13:8>, and that he is the same to man ever since the fall; he was made of God wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, to Adam, and Abel, and Enoch, and Noah, and Shem, and all the patriarchs that lived and died by faith in him before Abraham was born. Abraham was the root of the Jewish nation, the rock out of which they were hewn. If Christ was before Abraham, his doctrine and religion were no novelty, but were, in the substance of them, prior to Judaism, and ought to take place of it.
    (from Matthew Henry's Commentary)


    blackhawk
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    Married
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    "But Jesus doesn't say over and over in other places int he Gospels that He was God. "

    What I think is kinda funny...another poster brought this up..

    The disciples say: Show us the father!
    Christ says: I've been with you all this time and you still don't know me?

    hint hint lol
     
  15. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +12
    Christian
    One thing that's been kind of knawing at me lately from some of the is Jesus God debates that i've read lately is for those who dont believe Jesus is God - Do you believe that the Holy Spirit is God ?

    This is a sincere question as i dont believe i've seen it debated before.

    regards
     
  16. drmmjr

    drmmjr Regular Member

    459
    +7
    Christian
    The Holy Spirit is the power of God.
     
  17. Phoenix

    Phoenix Senior Member

    520
    +12
    Christian
    I'll get back to you on that one drmmjr...

    If i'm not mistaken there are clear scriptures that say the Holy Spirit is God..as in lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God. I wish i had a Bible in front of me, was not a married couple in the first few chapter of Acts stricken dead on the spot for lying to the Holy Spirit ?



    edit -
     
  18. Blackhawk

    Blackhawk Monkey Boy

    +72
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    Now there are so many verses about the Holy Spirit that it is crazy. However the Holy Spirit definitey is not just the power of God. He is God. He is not some force He is the third person in the Godhead.

    Let's look at just some of the verses.

    Matt 1:18
    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.
    (NAU)

    Matt 3:16
    16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove {and} lighting on Him,
    (NAU)

    Matt 4:1
    1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
    (NAU)

    Matt 12:31
    31 "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
    (NAU)

    Matt 28:19
    19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
    (NAU)

    Mark 1:8
    8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
    (NAU)

    Mark 1:12
    12 Immediately the Spirit impelled Him {to} {go} out into the wilderness.
    (NAU)

    Luke 1:35
    35 The angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.
    (NAU)

    Luke 2:26
    26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
    (NAU)

    John 1:33
    33 "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.'
    (NAU)

    But I believe the most signifigant verses about the Holy Spirit being an actual person and not just a force come in the 14-16 chapters of John.

    John 14:25-26
    25 "These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you.
    26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
    (NAU)

    John 15:26
    26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, {that is} the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
    (NAU)

    John 16:12-14
    12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear {them} now.
    13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
    14 "He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose {it} to you.
    (NAU)

    A force or the "Power of God" would not be spoken about the way it is in these last verses. The Bible makes it clear that the Holy Spirit is just some mystical force or power of God.

    Blackhawk
     
  19. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    Phoniex I think the verses you're talking about is in Acts 5.

    vs 3 "then Peter said, "Anaians, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you recieved for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men, but to God." "
     
  20. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

    +172
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    Posted by DR

    "
    Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I AM not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

    Was John the Baptist saying that God was not worthy to bear the shoes of Jesus?
    "

    Houston we have a problem! John did not say "ego eimi! He said "ouk eimi"/"not am!"

    "
    Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I Am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.

    Was the Centurion saying that God was not worthy to have Jesus at his house?


    Irrelevant! The centurion was a Roman, not a Jew. Even if he knew that "ego eimi" was an exclusive address for Israel’s God, he would have used it anyway just for spite.

    "
    Matthew 27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but [that] rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed [his] hands before the multitude, saying, IAm innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye [to it].

    Was Pilate saying that God was innocent of the blood of Jesus?
    "

    Irrelevant! Pilate was an Edomite, not a Jew! If he knew that "ego eimi" was the Jews exclusive address for God, he might have used it anyway also for spite.

    "
    Luke 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I Am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years.
    19 And the angel answering said unto him, I Am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

    Was Zacharias calling God an old man? Is Gabriel God?
    "

    Another swing and a miss. Zacharias also did not say "ego eimi". He said "ego yar eimi." Now that leaves Gabriel. The "El" part of his name means "God." But that is not the main thing. This calls for a little grammar lesson. In this sentence, "I am Gabriel." There is a subject and a predicate. The predicate is Gabriel. "I am Gabriel." There is no way that sentence could possibly be misunderstood as claiming to be God.

    In the sentence that Jesus spoke, "Before Abraham came into existence I Am." The predicate is "the one existing (in the present tense) before Abraham came into existence." And there is no way that sentence can be understood in any other way than a claim to be God. That also explains why the scribes and Pharisees tried to stone him right in the temple.


    Another thing for you to ponder. In the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament the phrase "I Am" is used only thirteen times and only of God. Ex 3:14, Deut 32:39, Isaiah 14:14, 43:10, 43:13, 43:25, 46:4, 48:12, 51:12, and 52:6. And if you count there are only nine verses. But "ego eimi" appears twice in De 32:39, and Isa 43:25, and 51:12.

    And twice in the O.T. God rebukes someone, Assyria and Babylon, for using this exclusive reference, "I Am".

    "Now then, listen, you wanton creature, lounging in your security and saying to yourself, ‘I AM (LXX- ego eimi), and there is none besides me. I will never be a widow or suffer the loss of children’… You have trusted in your wickedness and have said, ‘No one sees me.’ Your wisdom and knowledge mislead you when you say to yourself, ‘I AM (LXX- ego eimi), and there is none besides me.’" Isaiah 47:8, 10

    "This is the carefree city that lived in safety. She said to herself, ‘I AM (LXX- ego eimi), and there is none besides me.’ What a ruin she has become, a lair for wild beasts! All who pass by her scoff and shake their fists." Zephaniah 2:15.


    The scriptural evidence overwhelminly proves that "I Am" was an exclusive self reference for God. We can also go into the evidence from the early church if you like, people like Polycarp and Ignatius, John's disciples and Barnabas, Pauls disciples, in the first and second centuries.
     
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