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Sorry No sale! Please read the following two verses. Who did the speaking?
Now v 38 is pretty stong in your favor it appears. You're welcome. Now explain Ex 33:20.
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Sorry No sale! Please read the following two verses. Who did the speaking?That is casually mentioned in Acts 7.
Would make for an interesting thread
Acts 7:30 And of being filled years, forty, was seen to him in the wilderness of the mount Sinai a Messenger of Lord, in a flame of fire of a bush
38 This is the one-becoming in the Out-Called/ekklhsia <1577> in the wilderness with the Messenger, the one speaking to him in the Mount Sinai, and with our fathers who receives oracles/words, living, to give to us.
[Luke 16:24]
Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Luke 16:24 And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me that I am being anguished/pained in the flame this."
[Matthew 3:9/Acts 7:30-38]
Wrong religion. David 64 is prolly SDA. Can't say for sure but he sure talks like one.Sabbath school stuff? They don't teach Jesus or incarnation in "Sabbath school", whatever that is (I'm assuming you mean Hebrew School). Plenty of people have seen God, just not in his fully glorified form. God usually appeared to people in the Old Testament through an angel or other medium (Burning Bush).
Exodus 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush.
The Word is not an angel.
The references to Moses seeing God's face are not literal, otherwise you have a contradiction just in Exodus alone.
Obviously it's not just an angel because the text goes on to call Him God, and the Lord.
Actually, Jesus was only referring to the unbelieving Jews with whom he was speaking when he said this. We can see this from the context. He never said that no one has heard the voice of the Father. What he did say was that "YOU" have never heard his voice or seen his shape. The discourse starts at verse 16. From there we can see that Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders who began persecuting him.
I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finishthe very works that I am doingtestify that the Father has sent me. And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent." Jn 5:36-38 NIVConsider the following passages..
"Father, glorify your name! Then a voice came from heaven, I have glorified it, and will glorify it again. The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jn 12:28-29 NIV
A voice came from the cloud, saying, This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him. Lk 9:35 NIV
For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. 2 Peter 1:16-18 NIV
Reading problem?I know you probably think you've make some point brilliantly but what point is it you think you've made?
None of these disagree with what I said.
There may be no such interpretation, but the Trinity is there, all right.
In Genesis Chapter One, God creates by his word. The Spirit of God hovers over the waters, and God walks in the garden in the cool of the evening.
Father, Spirit and Son, right there from the very beginning. It doesn't have to be called a Trinity to be recognised as One God, three persons.
What then do they say? And please at least use the reference to whatever you may respond to. Thanks.These scriptures you refer to in Gen. don't point to a trinity.
You need to look else where.
I read the same thing as you do. Causes me to wonder where some of this stuff comes from. Not really, cause I do know.Sorry to disappoint but I meant that an angel sent from the Lord got Moses attention so God could talk to him. That's all. . . . .
Lord is Jehovah which means God. So verse 4 could simply read as following: And when God saw that Moses turned aside to see, HE called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he (Moses) said, Here am I.
Keeping it simple.
So Whose voice so you suppose it belonged to? Jesus was just baptised and this voice came from the clouds, not the ground or the figure coming out of the water.Nowhere does it say that, so why do you?
Yes and if you read the KJV you will find it says the Lord saw and God spoke not an angel - v 4. It doesn't say anywhere that an angel spoke.Patience7, Thanks, but it changes nothing. Not sure what Bible your using, but both the K.J.B. and the N.I.V. say "The angel of the Lord appeared unto him (Moses.) And not, "An angel of the Lord." Like I said in my last post, the definite article tells the whole story.
This was Jesus Christ, the Word. Also, the angel of the Lord, appeared to Moses out of the midst of the Bush. Ver.6, "Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
There is no doubt this was Jesus, and hundreds of other commentators, theologians, Lexiconagraphers, etc., have over the past centuries agree with this teaching.
Now the Jehovah Witnesses don't, but they really don't matter, do they?
Phil LaSpino
So then is Jesus the son of an angel? That sure is news to most of us. Most of us think of Jesus as the only begotten of the Father which undeniably makes Him the Son of God.Well since Jesus said no one had heard the Father it had to be an angel sent by God the Father with a message from Him.
Remember scripture can not be broken.
Then they didn't actually see God, did they.when the bible refers to the "Angel of the Lord", it is referring to the One we know as the Christ.
moses talked to the One we know as Jesus and here's proof from the bible!
John 1:1(NKJV)
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
word, strongs G3056
G3056
λόγος
logos
log'-os
From G3004; something said (including the thought); by implication a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension a computation; specifically (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (that is, Christ):account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say (-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
He that speaks came to this world in the flesh jn 1:14!
now, look at this:
Hebrews 2:7-9(NKJV)
7 You have made him a little lower than the angels; You have crowned him with glory and honor, And set him over the works of Your hands.
8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
moses didn't see the face of God! (ex 33:20-23), you have to remember that when He appeared in His Glory, He often hid Himself in a thick black cloud!
Sure creates a problem with Ex 33:20 doesn't it? Do you have an explanation?notice this:
Exodus 24:9-11(NKJV)
9Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel,
10and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity.
11But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.
So Who did Moses talk with that said you can't see My face and live? Ex 33:20.now, compare to:
John 1:18(NKJV)
18No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (Who declared Whom?)
John 6:46(NKJV)
46Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
1 John 4:12(NKJV)
12No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
so, who did moses and the others see? i think it's safe to say it wasn't the Father!
I have had this problem with some people who claim they didn't hear what I said, but when asked they would quote me word for word. I think that is what is being communicated here by John.well, let's look at the verse:
John 5:37(NKJV)
37And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
who are the "you" in this verse? the answer is in verse 18!
the jews that Jesus was answering from verse 18 of the same chapter had never heard the voice of the Father.
He did not say "no one".
Who is the Speaker in Gen 3:15 of the Speaker in Matt 3:17. Some one already seems to have suggested that Jesus is the son of an angel or something other than God the Father. Maakes one wonder who this Jesus you talk about is. On one hand it is said that He is God and issued the 10 Cs and then out of the other side of the mouth denying He is that very God. Uncle! Uncle! I just can't find any consistancy here.Jo. 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son,who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him.
Jo. 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father.
Jo.5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
We need to read all scriptures on the subject.
Good point! Very good wabbit. Now I ask if it wasn't God the Father speaking in Gen 1:26 and 3:15? If it was then where or how does it change to Jesus at Mt Sinai?well, let's look at the verse:
John 5:37(NKJV)
37And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
who are the "you" in this verse? the answer is in verse 18!
the jews that Jesus was answering from verse 18 of the same chapter had never heard the voice of the Father.
He did not say "no one".
Communicating can be very interestign, can't it?Lion King, Every Christian believes in one God. The problem with this whole discussion is to understand what the word "one" means. Concerning "One God,"
The word, "One," can be,
Single in number, as an individual, meaning one man, one book. But, it also can mean, one in union, or, one united body.
The word one, like many other adjectives is used without a noun, and is to be considered as a substitute for some noun understood. For example, if we say,
1. "Let the men (plural) depart one by one (singular)."
2. "Count them = (the men plural) one by one (singular.)"
3. "Every one = (speaking of a group of men) has his (singular) peculiar habits."
Gen.2:24, "Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave = (be joined) unto his wife: and they (plural) shall be one (singular) flesh." Two people, one flesh.
Gen.34:16, "Then will we give our daughters unto you, and we will take your daughters to us, and we (plural) will dwell with you, and we will become one (singular) people." That is, many people will become one people.
Col.3:15, "Ye = (many) are called in one body;" In this verse we see that many people are called into one body, which is the church of Jesus Christ.
When we speak of One God, we are speaking of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as being one in union. Union implying two or more being united, a conjunction of minds, wills, affections, and interests.
I hope this clears up your understanding on the subject.
Phil LaSpino
Sure creates a problem with Ex 33:20 doesn't it? Do you have an explanation?
So Who did Moses talk with that said you can't see My face and live? Ex 33:20.
Now since you are quoting JHohn 1:18, I John 4:12 and say that no one has seen God are you saying the Jesus isn't God? Sure looks that way to me.
I really would love to know what you're trying to say. It doesn't look very well to me.
Can you trace this from Gen 3;15 for me please? I would like to see where the Lord or God that spoke in Gen 3:15 becomes Jesus at Mt Sinai. The Speaker in Gen 3:15 isn't talking about Himself.at first appearance Moses saw what looked to be an angel.. but upon closer inspection He heard God say... just like Yeshua said "before Abraham I AM....
Acts 7:30 After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to get a closer look, he heard the Lord say: 32 I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
How is that for Yeshua showing up? This "He" is Yeshua that is being talked about..
37 This is the Moses who told the Israelites, God will raise up for you a prophet like me from your own people. 38 He was in the assembly in the wilderness, with the angel who spoke to him on Mount Sinai, and with our ancestors; and he received living words to pass on to us.
Before His incarnate.. His appearance was like an angel.
Yes I do because I can't find it.Ever wonder why Abraham says Lord Lord... like he is address two of them..
I agree with that. But where does Abraham even say that?Um, Lord Lord has nothing to do with Abraham speaking to 2 personhoods.
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