Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Exactly.Yes and thats what calvinists teach.. That is a terrible charge to place before the Almighty God of all existence..
I'm sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. If God knows what we will do (which He does), then how is that God choosing? Just because God knows, how does that translate to "God chose"?
That is what the Bible teaches. You should look at Romans 9:14-24, particularly v22 which discusses "vessels prepared for destruction".
This site is a good source for explanation of this doctrine:
Ligonier Ministries
This portion is informative: "As the Creator, God has the right to do with His creation as He pleases. God is just and His glory is manifested in punishing those whom He has ordained to do evil just as a potter has the right to make some vessels fit for destruction."
This is not easy theology. But it is what the Bible teaches. We can either accept it--trust the Lord and lean not on our own understanding, or hold up objections to it and say that that makes God immoral according to our own standards.
Basically Calvinism takes into account the full counsel of God as is revealed to us in his word. You can certainly ignore portions of the Bible, therefore cherry-picking parts of it but what does that leave you? Your own made-up theology based on what you think is acceptable. The truth can be hard at times. But for those who do not want to accept truth, God will allow them their delusions as their just punishment (2 Thess 2:11).
But how is that God choosing us? If WE live out our lives and either ACCEPT or REJECT Christ AND that is the only criteria that God bases who is 'chosen' then really we have chosen through our actions and God just foreknows.So do you think God chooses those who reject His will ?
He chose us from the very beggining of creation because He foreknew us, He knew we would accept the Way of salvation through the Atonement of the LORD Jesus Christ.. This does not mean we are the only ones called for many are called but few are chosen..
Thank you for the explanation. I read the Romans verses you referenced (although I had to use NIV to absorb them) they certainly support your view. I haven't studied the Ligonier website you referenced as I have to get to work now, but I saved it and will be checking it out.
The Calvinist view is new to me. Though I'm not well read in the Bible, I have read the gospels and a few other books. The sense I had after reading those is that it would be in God's nature to offer salvation to all.
I'm very interested should you (or anyone) care to address a couple of other questions.
Given the Calvinist view...
1) ...does John 3:16 contradict Roman's 14 - 24? If not, how do you reconcile the two?
2) ...is it fair to deduce that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?
But how is that God choosing us? If WE live out our lives and either ACCEPT or REJECT Christ AND that is the only criteria that God bases who is 'chosen' then really we have chosen through our actions and God just foreknows.
So to say God has chosen, to me is misleading.
Foreknowledge is much different from God choosing.
And let me also add that God foreseeing is not predestining. To destine is to choose the outcome. If God foreknows what we will do, that is not predestining anything, that is who GOd is, Omnipresent and Omnipotent. God cannot not, know.
God chose those who would embrace His will from His forknowledge of them ebracing his will.. God did not force one person to accept His will and force another person to reject His will.. God from the very foundation of creation know all history and foreknew those who would embrace His will and from that foreknowledge He predesitnes those who will be conformed to the image of the Messiah Jesus..
Free will has always been active in humanity. And we chose to accept or reject Gods will..
I am Not a calvanist ...
1)There is no verse Romans 13: 24 ????
2) Yes,, thats the oinly conclusion a 5 point calvinist can come to.. Terrible hey?
Thank you for the explanation. I read the Romans verses you referenced (although I had to use NIV to absorb them) they certainly support your view. I haven't studied the Ligonier website you referenced as I have to get to work now, but I saved it and will be checking it out.
The Calvinist view is new to me. Though I'm not well read in the Bible, I have read the gospels and a few other books. The sense I had after reading those is that it would be in God's nature to offer salvation to all.
I'm very interested should you (or anyone) care to address a couple of other questions.
Given the Calvinist view...
1) ...does John 3:16 contradict Roman's 14 - 24? If not, how do you reconcile the two?
2) ...is it fair to deduce that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?
That was always my understanding, therefore my surprise when I learned of the Calvinist point of view. That God, unconstrained by time, would always know who will be saved makes more sense to me. Though at the same time, the scripture referred to, Romans 9:14-24 by dhh712 does seem to support her view.
1) ...does John 3:16 contradict Roman's 14 - 24? If not, how do you reconcile the two?
2) ...is it fair to deduce that God created souls whose only option is eternity in hell?
Hi, Today I read the following... It was the #2 reply to a post in General Theology titled "Pretend I'm an atheist. How would you convert me?"
"I hope you receive plenty of replies from mature believers but my two cents worth is WE humans do not convert anyone only the HOLY SPIRIT can convert after GOD THE FATHER has chosen to hover over the unbeliever. We can spend years talking to brick walls becoming disheartened over it but GOD will have compassion on those HE chooses and not everyone is chosen."
Over the years I've heard others say that not everyone is chosen. So my questions are...
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
Thank you,
Charles
And Calvinists believe a perfect God led Adam and Eve to sin in the Garden.
Honey, if there is no free will, then God planned it in Calvinism. One cannot agree that no one has free will and then not take Adam and Eve as the first example.We don't believe that, not sure where you're coming up with that from. God had nothing to do with Adam and Eve's sin. He doesn't lead anyone to sin. It is clear that God cannot be held responsible for sin. Calvinism is a difficult theology. If you want to believe that God has no control over people who sin and and they're just doing something which God had not ordained (or something along those lines, I don't know, it's not my belief), that's fine. That's a lot easier to believe. I really don't care to get into arguments which cause division among brothers and sisters in Christ. The necessity for salvation we can all agree on: that Jesus Christ had died for us so that we can enjoy eternity with our Heavenly Father.
Honey, if there is no free will, then God planned it in Calvinism. One cannot agree that no one has free will and then not take Adam and Eve as the first example.
Problem with Calvinism is they don't like the negative things that come along with their crazy doctrine.
1) I don't see any contradiction--whoever does believe upon Jesus will not perish but have eternal life.
2) that seems to be what creating vessels for destruction means.
I would add also that Lutherans also believe in election, not on the basis of God knowing beforehand who would choose Him; but that He has indeed chosen us in Jesus. But election in Lutheranism is not about God choosing some to be saved and passing over others for damnation; it is instead about God's loving kindness toward us in Jesus who desires and causes our salvation by His own mercy. God passes over none, indeed God desires that all be saved. And all means all.
The Calvinist view is often called "Double Predestination" as it states that God has both predestined the elect to salvation and predestined the reprobate for destruction; Lutherans on the other hand absolutely and emphatically deny and reject double predestination; God has, in His grace, predestined us in Jesus, choosing us and electing us in Christ; but God has predestined nobody for destruction or damnation, indeed as said before God desires that ALL be saved. As a Lutheran I might acknowledge that the Calvinist position is "reasonable", but it is not biblical. The biblical view is indeed paradoxical according to Lutheranism; the paradox of God choosing His elect and, nevertheless, desiring all to be saved--and yet no one is saved by their own choosing, actions, or will but instead by the gracious work of Christ alone through God's efficacious means of grace, the preaching of the Gospel and the Holy Sacraments. Therefore no one is damned by God's choice or will, for God's will is the salvation of all, it is God's work to save all; it is only through our own will that we are damned, God does not damn us, we damn ourselves.
Here is what we might call a Lutheran alternative to TULIP:
Total Depravity
Unconditional Election
Universal Atonement
Resistible Grace
Assurance of the Saints
Total Depravity, that is, man is sinful, broken, not only in part but in total, thus even man's will is subject to sin, and bent toward slavery to himself.
Unconditional Election, that is, God has chosen us in Christ apart from anything of ourselves--it was not on account of our worthiness or our acts or our choices that He has chosen us, it is solely on account of His great love and kindness in Jesus.
Universal Atonement, that is, Jesus Christ died for everyone, without exception.
Resistible Grace, that is, while the human will is not free to do that which is pleasing to God due to the yoke and bondage of sin, the will absolutely does by its own natural inclination flee from God and resist His grace; which is why no one can boast of his or her salvation since it is God alone who causes it to be; having overcome us with His love and grace by the power of the Holy Spirit through the Means of His grace.
Assurance of the Saints, that is, we can be confident and certain in the promises of God in Jesus, that He who began a good work in us will continue that good work until the day Christ returns; that we are indeed truly saved in Christ, and that though we might and will fail Him, Jesus won't fail us.
In this way Lutheranism is neither Calvinist nor Arminian, and in some ways the Lutheran POV is that Calvinism and Arminianism share a common heritage which is completely different from the Lutheran. For Lutherans the chief and guiding principle of theology is the grace of God in Jesus Christ. It isn't God's sovereignty (Calvinism) or man's free will (Arminianism), it is instead the good, gracious, and Incarnate God crucified and raised from the dead for us. It's all about Jesus, it's all about grace.
-CryptoLutheran
1) Did Jesus' death and resurrection provide a path to eternal life for everyone, or just the chosen?
2) If we were created with a free will, is it reasonable to deduce that anyone can choose to accept Christ? Or is it only the chosen?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?