Who can baptise others in water

DamianWarS

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Anyone technically can baptize, but we should prefer to be baptized by an authoritative clergyman.


Did the Apostolic Church operate in the fashion you suggest? Baptise anyone and not obligate them to be in communion with, at least to some degree, the Apostles who Christ appointed as leaders of the Church?

The idea of the Church being a free for all doesn't seem to gel well with what we see happening after the resurrection. Churches supported one another (as we see Paul collecting money from other Churches for the sake of the Church at Jerusalem).

What is the benefit of baptizing someone and leaving them to themselves instead of incorporating them properly into the existent Church?

Who said anything about leaving them to themselves? The model presented in the NT tends to favour baptism immediately upon conversion and in Acts people are baptized in Jesus name only. We want to "fix" people's theology too much so require a bunch of hoops to go through before baptism but this is not the model that scripture show us. Protestants are not as "sola scriptura" as they think they are
 
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Strong in Him

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Can only Pastor's or every believers have the right to give water baptism to other

Here in the UK Methodist Church, local (lay) preachers can baptise - and I think lay readers can in the Anglican church. If there was an emergency in a hospital and they couldn't find a chaplain, I think anyone could perform a baptism.

Jesus told his disciples to preach, teach and baptise; he didn't insist on them being ordained first.
 
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Strong in Him

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And, the one performing the baptism had better know what in the ceremony might make the baptism invalid.

This is by no means an attack on you, but who regards it as being "invalid" - God, or the church?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Who said anything about leaving them to themselves? The model presented in the NT tends to favour baptism immediately upon conversion and in Acts people are baptized in Jesus name only. We want to "fix" people's theology too much so require a bunch of hoops to go through before baptism but this is not the model that scripture show us. Protestants are not as "sola scriptura" as they think they are

Ideally we want people to actually know something about the theology and morality of being a Christian when we baptise them. If I am wrong on this next point feel free to correct me, but all those who were baptized into the Church in Acts were Jews or were gentiles who lived in a Jewish context. They thus had knowledge of what it meant to confess Christ as Lord in the Jewish faith as well as a familiar moral framework.

When Christianity came to dominate and encounter people who had no context at all for understanding what it meant to be Christian, the idea of baptizing them simply on their verbal acceptance of Christ as Lord immediately, without them getting to understand the impact of those words seems like it's rushing things just a bit. If you were from a pagan context, worshiped many gods and your religion didn't extend beyond the simple honoring of these deities, what you were entering into as a Christian does not seem clear. It was not an unwise policy to initiate people, to give them a basic understanding of just what their baptism meant. Just what it meant to consider Christ as truly Lord of your life, to die and live in him.

I would go so far as to argue that in today's western world, where a lot of millennials have no clue as to what Christianity is or means that the process of catechizing them and letting them understand what it means to become a Christian will make for converts more dedicated to the faith. This is obviously different from the Apostolic practice but for obvious reason since we are not in their context. This doesn't seem like an unreasonable accounting for delaying baptizing and why it happened later in the church's history.
 
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Strong in Him

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That passage does not tell US to do that. Jesus was speaking to his Apostles, the original clergy of the church he founded.

Jesus was speaking to his disciples; those he had called and who followed him.
I don't know about you, but I'm a disciple.

You could equally say that Jesus was talking to his disciples when he gave the sermon on the mount, the parables, his teaching about the true vine, bread of life etc, and what we now call the Lord's Supper.
If all this was only for the 12, where does that leave us?
And how do you know that all 12 were to be clergy in his future church? Most of them died or were killed.
 
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Mountainmike

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Can only Pastor's or every believers have the right to give water baptism to other

The catholic view is that a priest or deacon is expected to perform baptism, but in exceptional circumstance others can do so provided they use the right formula.

As an aside it is interesting in the didache (a christian manual used in the first century that also specificies water types ) does not explicitly specify who performs baptism, but does say the baptizer should fast before hand!
 
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DamianWarS

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Ideally we want people to actually know something about the theology and morality of being a Christian when we baptise them. If I am wrong on this next point feel free to correct me, but all those who were baptized into the Church in Acts were Jews or were gentiles who lived in a Jewish context. They thus had knowledge of what it meant to confess Christ as Lord in the Jewish faith as well as a familiar moral framework.

When Christianity came to dominate and encounter people who had no context at all for understanding what it meant to be Christian, the idea of baptizing them simply on their verbal acceptance of Christ as Lord immediately, without them getting to understand the impact of those words seems like it's rushing things just a bit. If you were from a pagan context, worshiped many gods and your religion didn't extend beyond the simple honoring of these deities, what you were entering into as a Christian does not seem clear. It was not an unwise policy to initiate people, to give them a basic understanding of just what their baptism meant. Just what it meant to consider Christ as truly Lord of your life, to die and live in him.

I would go so far as to argue that in today's western world, where a lot of millennials have no clue as to what Christianity is or means that the process of catechizing them and letting them understand what it means to become a Christian will make for converts more dedicated to the faith. This is obviously different from the Apostolic practice but for obvious reason since we are not in their context. This doesn't seem like an unreasonable accounting for delaying baptizing and why it happened later in the church's history.

the order of the great commission tells us "go and make disciples" first then it says "baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" I would never suggest to reverse that order.
 
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zoidar

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Can only Pastor's or every believers have the right to give water baptism to other

Any baptized Christian can baptize another Christian.
 
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OzSpen

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Technically, any believer can, especially in emergencies. But this usually leaves the person baptized without any documentation. And, the one performing the baptism had better know what in the ceremony might make the baptism invalid.

Why does the baptism need to be documented?
 
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Mountainmike

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Why does the baptism need to be documented?

In the case of the catholic church it needs to be documented.

Because evidence of baptism is needed for later sacramental confirmation: and whilst the catholic church accepts any baptism, any where ,that has the right form - but if there is no evidence of that baptism, a "conditional baptism" is used.

That is because unless the church knows which denomination did the baptism (via a record) it cannot be certain the right formula was used.

It is sad but some have changed it to: ( such as) "in the name of Jesus" (only); others "in the name of the creator redeemer and sanctifier" ; neither of which are valid or biblical.

So for example catholicism happily accepts a certificate of anglican baptism for later confirmation into catholicism.
 
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Inkfingers

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Can only Pastor's or every believers have the right to give water baptism to other

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light" (1 Peter 2:9)

If you are saved, you are a priest. And if you are not a priest, you are not saved.
 
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DW1980

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It is sad but some have changed it to: ( such as) "in the name of Jesus" (only); others "in the name of the creator redeemer and sanctifier" ; neither of which are valid or biblical.
I have never seen a baptism done by anything other than "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" - but the "Jesus only" one would surely be biblical - see Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48 etc.

...or those chosen by the church to administer the sacraments, etc., as described by the New Testament?
There are definitely qualifications for leadership roles - but where does the NT say that only certain people can baptise or preside at communion? I just don't see that? I was always taught the priesthood of all believers, and that means we are all able to baptise or do communion, though normally it would be the pastor.
 
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Albion

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So only those Apostles Jesus was speaking to at that moment are the only ones who were to go into all nations making disciples and baptizing?
Seriously?
No. They commissioned others who commissioned (ordained ) others and so on.

But I was basically just saying that, whatever ones view of divine callings and baptisms by laymen etc. might be, the particular verse you referred to had Jesus speaking to his Apostles, not to everybody.
 
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Albion

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Didn't Ned Flanders have an emergency baptizing kit?

But seriously what parts of the great commission are for clergy and what parts are for lay people? I receive it as a message for all believers but it seems there is controversy in that.
I appreciate the point you are making there, but we also have the history of the early church adn the rest of the New Testament to help us judge this kind of thing. And, no, it was not the case that every believer was equally entitled to conduct the worship services, handle and distribute the Communion bread and wine, and so on...or baptize new members.
 
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zoidar

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I have never seen a baptism done by anything other than "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" - but the "Jesus only" one would surely be biblical - see Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48 etc.


There are definitely qualifications for leadership roles - but where does the NT say that only certain people can baptise or preside at communion? I just don't see that? I was always taught the priesthood of all believers, and that means we are all able to baptise or do communion, though normally it would be the pastor.

I think to baptize in Jesus name, means to baptize the way Jesus taught, in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit. If you only mention Jesus, then I believe you are baptizing in an unbiblical way.
 
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Albion

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This is by no means an attack on you, but who regards it as being "invalid" - God, or the church?
The church, of course, is in the God business. I think we all agree to that. And if we believe that the Bible is our guide to the functioning of the church, it does appear that the church is carrying out its appointed duties in this case.

To be sure, if the church--any church--were to go off course, loosed from its Scriptural bearings, we would be right to address that.
 
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Albion

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Why does the baptism need to be documented?
Well, suppose the person later wanted to join a church...or get married in a church...or act as a sponsor or godparent for a someone else's baptism. He would (in many churches) be told that baptism was a pre-requisite. What then?
 
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miamited

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Technically, any believer can, especially in emergencies. But this usually leaves the person baptized without any documentation. And, the one performing the baptism had better know what in the ceremony might make the baptism invalid.

Hi albion,

I'll bite. What makes a baptism invalid that would be under the control of the person performing the baptism? I understand that the person being baptized might not have a true heart for God and that could be the case even if the pope himself were doing the baptizing. But what Scriptural warnings do you find concerning the person doing the baptizing?

God bless,
In Christ, ted
 
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Mountainmike

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I have never seen a baptism done by anything other than "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" - but the "Jesus only" one would surely be biblical - see Acts 2:38, 8:16, 10:48 etc.


Interesting. I have just been looking it up.

I was remembering the clear instruction of what should be done: "baptizing them in the name of the father etc.." Matthew 28:19

Which is also the formula used in the didache - so was therefore early church tradition.

And is also the form used in catholicism, in the catechism.

The question then - Are other forms valid? As per your references?

I have yet to find a definitive statement on it elsehwere, presumably somewhere in canon law, but things I just read imply "in the name of Jesus" (only) may be acceptable PROVIDED that the church in which it was administered is trinitarian. Ie not modalist like oneness pentecostals for examples. I will see if I can find a definitive magisterial statement.
 
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