Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua

[Tishri1]

poll coming too...wait for it.......

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua
poll coming too...wait for it.......

Many thanks for making the thread.......


In regards to the question--as it seems to be a continuation of the thread you made here--I'd think that clarification of terms is necessary before questioning begins...such as defining what is it that is meant when you say "Torah" or "Grace in Yeshua"--and if I may say, is there any way that a third option can be given for those believing that it's both Torah/Grace working together (for those coming from Messianic Fellowships advocating such)? In light of what appears to be "either-or " ideology within the question, I'd hate for something to go down involving a situation in which only two alternatives are considered, when in fact there are additional options Polls can sometimes be very complex

Personally, with the question, I'm with those who say it's both Torah/Grace in Yeshua that salvation comes--with the Law (as Paul noted in Romans 7 and I Timothy 1 amongst others) giving understanding as to what is righteous/unrighteous and Yeshua making us righteous--with the knowledge of what we're not to do keeping us in check from mistakes just as the apostles warned about when it came to the examples of others given for our edification (i.e. I Corinthians 10, Hebrews 4, etc). Dr. Michael Brown once came to Atlanta and visited the ministry of Ryan Lambert who is the leader of a Messianic Jewish fellowship--and he shared many wonderful points in regards to his own view on how believers were saved by Torah and yet saved by grace/faith in Yeshua as well. For more, one can go here to the main page of Lambert's fellowship and look here, if looking up the sermon entitled "Should Christians Keep the Torah? (Delivered at The Vineyard – Senoia, GA.)". Messianic Scholars such as Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum of "Ariel Ministries" is an excellent source of information as it concerns discussing the issue of the Law and Grace....as seen in his article entitled THE GRACE OF GOD--and I've shared my viewpoint before in #74 and #87 .

But again, I don't think it's an "either-or" between the Torah or Grace in Yeshua that has to be chosen with regards to our development/salvation...for one would not know the need to be saved apart from the Law/realizing one's powerlessness to do good by themselves---and without Yeshua to open the way, we'd all be helpless/depressed not knowing how to get out...but He offers us a way out in Him (Romans 3, Romans 3:23-29)

 

[Tishri1]

no I wont add a third you need to determine which it is

 

[Gxg (G²)]

no I wont add a third you need to determine which it is

If that is your choice, by all means. Respectfully, however (As others noted in the older one), I think in doing so you essentially ensure you won't get an accurate answer in limiting the choices to ones which really don't represent what all may really feel as the options ( false dichotomy) since most Messianic Jewish organizations don't say it's a matter of Grace in Yeshua saving us rather than Torah being apart of it. I'd personally like to know whether it is a matter of just trying to see what others think..or if there a goal as with the last one. Knowing intentions stated before hand make a difference--and there's nothing wrong with seeing the point of a discussion before engaging in it ..or asking for clarification before beginning as that's wisdom ( Mark 11:28-30 /Mark 11, Proverbs 18:13 )

 

[Yahudim]

Who believes this to be true? -We are saved by Torah, not by faith/grace in Yeshua. poll coming too...wait for it.......

Seriously? OK, the answer is a no brainer. We are saved by BOTH! We are saved by the grace of the Father and the atoning sacrifice of the Son. We are instructed in how to avoid sin and receive salvation by (drum roll please) the Word! (both the living Word that is Y'shua and the written Word that is Torah as they are both different sides of the same coin!

Tish, really? Can we have one without the other? Please consider rewording this poll. I cannot imagine Torah without grace! Nor can I imagine grace without Torah!

 

[xxpigxx]

umm, the two are kind of intertwined and impossible to separate.

 

[mishkan]

If that is your choice, by all means. Respectfully, however (As others noted in the older one), I think in doing so you essentially ensure you won't get an accurate answer in limiting the choices to ones which really don't represent what all may really feel as the options ( false dichotomy) since most Messianic Jewish organizations don't say it's a matter of Grace in Yeshua saving us rather than Torah being apart of it. I'd personally like to know whether it is a matter of just trying to see what others think..or if there a goal as with the last one. Knowing intentions stated before hand make a difference--and there's nothing wrong with seeing the point of a discussion before engaging in it ..or asking for clarification before beginning as that's wisdom ( Mark 11:28-30 /Mark 11, Proverbs 18:13 )

Precisely so. The phrasing of the question is a great illustration of how easy it is to buy into traditional thinking without even realizing it! This sharp dichotomy between faith and works comes to us only from the time of the Reformation. Prior to that, even the churches unanimously taught that our belief must manifest itself in action, or it is not true trust/belief/faith". The fact is, "emunah" and "pistis" should both be rendered "faithfulness" or "fidelity" to be more consistent with Biblical usage.

I like how a rabbi friend once put it: "Everything God gives us, including the Torah, is an act of grace".

The ability to obey is a gracious gift. The alternative is death (in more than one way).

 

[mishkan]

I cannot imagine Torah without grace! Nor can I imagine grace without Torah!

 

[Avodat]

Given that the two are inter-dependent it is a nonsense question. Without Torah to violate grace would not exist.

 

[mishkan]

Given that the two are inter-dependent it is a nonsense question. Without Torah to violate grace would not exist.

I would invite you to consider the Torah on its own merit, though, and not merely as a foil for grace.

Your statement is equivalent to saying, "We need evil because without it, good would not exist".

 

[Avodat]

I would invite you to consider the Torah on its own merit, though, and not merely as a foil for grace.

Your statement is equivalent to saying, "We need evil because without it, good would not exist".

Not at all. What I am saying is that if there is no Law then there is no need for grace. Grace is provided for those occasions when we unwittingly break the Law (when we know we have broken the Law we have an immediate remedy - true repentance). Therefore, if there is no Law to break, grace is pointless as would be Yeshua's birth, life, death and resurrection.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Precisely so. The phrasing of the question is a great illustration of how easy it is to buy into traditional thinking without even realizing it! This sharp dichotomy between faith and works comes to us only from the time of the Reformation. Prior to that, even the churches unanimously taught that our belief must manifest itself in action, or it is not true trust/belief/faith". .

There was ALOT of uncessary drama that came from the Reformation..and interesting enough, I'm always surprised at how many celebrate the Reformers as saints even though many forget how even they were human/had serious flaws when it came to interpreting scripture.

For others eager to celebrate Luther in his championing of Romans, I'm always amazed at how they don't say anything about his hating the book of James (As well as Esther) and considering taking them out---and of course, from there no one discusses how his voice was not the only significant one, as what he often said about grace was said in light of how much the emphasis was SOLELY upon works rather than grace/favor in Messiah...and others like Erasmus supported Luther in that aspect while trying to get him to realize that not all aspects of works were wrong. While he agreed with some of Luther’s points, especially in relation to the immorality of many in the Catholic Church, he firmly disagreed with Luther’s virulent attack on good deeds. In an effort to combat him, Erasmus wrote the following little parable:

A father lifts up a child who has fallen and has not yet strength to walk, however much it tries, and show it an apple which lies over against it; the child longs to run, but on account of the weakness of its limbs it would have fallen had not its father held its hand and steadied its footsteps, so that led by its father it obtains the apple which the father willingly puts in its hand as a reward for running. The child could not have stood up if the father had not lifted it, could not have seen the apple had the father not shown it, could not advance unless the father had all the time assisted its feeble steps, could not graps the apple had the father not put it into his hand. What, then, can the infant claim for itself? And yet it does something. But it has nothing to glory about in its powers, for it owes its very self to its father. (Erasmus, On the Freedom of the Will)
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Some of what was said is stated in light of alot of the experiences I had in highschool. For as shared elsewhere, I attended a "Non Demoninational" highschool that was predominately "Reformed" and the teachers would often advocate the "Once Saved, Always Saved" mindset whenever discussion came up about salvation. The Church I attended at the time was never for the "Once Saved, Always Saved" mindset---and our pastor spoke on it often (as seen if one goes here to Salvation - The terms of the Covenant! and Sin: Self-Rule _).

It was odd to see how much others would make fun of you for daring to believe that one can become decieved and renounce their salvation despite what the Lord has done....for in the world of REFORMED Theology, there were many scholars/theologians who'd often be considered the definers of what is or isn't Orthodox. If you didn't agree with them (i.e. John Piper, Wayne Grudem, John Macarther, Al Molher, R.C Sproul, etc) or with those from the Reformation, then you didn't agree with "truth"....but for myself, I later came to realize that the Reformation was never something that represented every camp in Christendom---and many of those same people in Reformed Theology often advocated things that were damaging to my ancestors (i.e., arguing that Slavery was destined by the Lord and should be supported, saying that it was pre-destined for one to be a slave and therefore they should not rise against their masters, saying "grace" covered the sins of kidnappers and thus no one could condemn those stealing children from their families to be sold in market, etc).

I was very glad to later realize how much Reformed Theology was not the only DOMINANT view on the Bible and that others had long disagreed with them with many solid reasons. As much as it was told to me that the Reformed VIEW was the most "biblical" worldview, it just didn't line up fully with a host of scriptures that often got explained away---and when I came into Messianic Judaism, I was surprised to see how many of the Church Fathers were actually NOT for that mindset.


One of my favorite Messianic Jewish scholars is Dr. Michael Brown....and on the issue, there was a recent debate on the issue..as seen in Arminian Today: Dr. Michael Brown vs. Dr. James White. As a Messianic Jew, Brown has never made any secret of how it seems that in some ways the concept of "election" is taken out of context concerning 1st century Judaism saw the issue....and for more info, one can go to "Ask Dr.Brown: Calvinism" . Additionally, the Society of Evangelical Arminians (SEA) thankfully gave out an EXCELLENT study document by David H.Stern of the "Jewish New Testament Commetary" ......regarding his views on the conditional security of believers. It's entitled Messianic Jew David Stern and the Security of the Believer and Exegeting Romans 3:10-18 | Society of Evangelical Arminians
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The fact is, "emunah" and "pistis" should both be rendered "faithfulness" or "fidelity" to be more consistent with Biblical usage.

Good way of seeing it...

I like how a rabbi friend once put it: "Everything God gives us, including the Torah, is an act of grace".

The ability to obey is a gracious gift. The alternative is death (in more than one way).

So true...

 

[Gxg (G²)]

SOme of the discussion about torah as a foil to grace brought to mind another question: Would God truly be love if there was nothing He could give of Himself to and rescue--and thus, would men understand the need for redeemption/savior if man never fell?

 

[jcpro]

should there not be a third choice?

 

[Tishri1]

which ONE are you saved by?

Seriously? OK, the answer is a no brainer. We are saved by BOTH! We are saved by the grace of the Father and the atoning sacrifice of the Son. We are instructed in how to avoid sin and receive salvation by (drum roll please) the Word! (both the living Word that is Y'shua and the written Word that is Torah as they are both different sides of the same coin!

Tish, really? Can we have one without the other? Please consider rewording this poll. I cannot imagine Torah without grace! Nor can I imagine grace without Torah!

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

As Paul said in Galatians 2:16 no one is saved by the works of the Law.

 

[yedida]

I agree with all that you guys have said but I went ahead and picked #2 for it is closer to the truth between the two choices.

 

[Yahudim]

So where is the other choice, both?

 

[Avodat]

So where is the other choice, both?

The third choice consists of two choices: 'take it' OR 'leave it'

 

[janwoG]

Since Torah is the Word of God and Yeshua is the incarnate Word of God, consequently there is a direct link between both. Yeshua is the Spirit of the Word and the Torah is His tool. By own effort, one cannot become righteous with the Torah, we need faith in Yeshua. There is no opposition between both but synergy, since both are from God. Yeshua shows that on one way or the other, our inherent weakness leads us to transgression. Through redemption by Yeshua makes us straight.
Let us take an extreme example:
Be holy, for I, the Lord, your God, am Holy (Leviticus 19.2), does not imply equality of Holiness.
Yeshua commanded:
But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.(Mat. 5.48). Only Yeshuah can satisfy to be equally perfect as the Father. He asks us to strive to that perfection. Because if your righteousness does not exceed the righteousness that of scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of heaven. (Mat17.20)
If I recite the Shema in the morning, the second item is shema Yisrael Adonai Yeshua Ha Mashiach. Then I conclude in asking for forgiveness for any transgression during the night and during the day.
To conclude option 1 is false, option 2 is right but incomplete. James expressed the complete option,
Faith without work (work of Yeshua in us) is dead. (James 2:14)