Who are you?

trophy33

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If instead, a soul is in charge, how can an immaterial soul move the electrons in the brain?...
You can read my previous posts about the same, with FrumiousBandersnatch, you basically repeat his questions.

My answer would still be:
a) either the nature of reality is spiritual ("how immaterial strings produce material particles?")
b) preestablished harmony
 
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doubtingmerle

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Natural in what sense? Produced by nature?
Natural in the sense the strings are part of nature.

We are reaching the limits of our knowledge when it comes to strings, but it seems most likely that fundamental particles can be modeled as strings.

What happens when electrons collide? Electrons cannot remain rigid, for that would mean that the information of the collision traveled to the other side of the electron faster than the speed of light, which is impossible. But if they compress, that would mean electrons are made up of something squishy, and that squishiness must then be more fundamental than the electrons. We don't know, but the best way we currently have to visualize this is to model electrons as though they are made up of strings in multiple dimensions that act in ways that are very different from the macroscopic 3-dimensional world we live in.

"Different" is not the same as "spiritual".
 
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Mr Laurier

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Is that why we have flying squirrels today?

And is that why the educated arc and spark when I say Darwin wrote, The Preservation of Favoured Races?
Given that nobody does this "arc and spark"... EVER.
And Darwin never wrote your precious "The Preservation of Favoured Races".
 
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doubtingmerle

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My answer would again be:
a) either the nature of reality is spiritual ("how immaterial strings produce material particles?")
b) preestablished harmony
You are responding to the question, "How can an immaterial soul move the electrons in the brain?"

Answer a is false. Strings are not spiritual.

Answer b doesn't seem to address the issue. You are postulating "soul" that somehow interacts with electrons in the brain and causes them to move in ways that violate the laws of nature. There is no evidence that such forces exist.

"Preestablished harmony" does nothing to clarify anything for me.
 
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Mr Laurier

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Then why do you think it's metaphorical?

If the inappropriate content industry can tempt people, why can't Satan?
The inappropriate content industry exists.
Also, it doesn't tempt people. It feeds their fantasy.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Natural in what sense? Produced by nature?
First to clarify, what science does is build mathematical models of how the world works. These models are highly accurate, and give us very useful information.

Let me illustrate. Saying that we model the universe such that "E is taken as being equal to mc squared" is not the same thing as saying that we know the universe is known to be this model. We are saying that this model gives us extremely accurate information, and that we find the universe is always consistent with this model as far as we know.

Likewise, modeling consciousness as a story written by the brain, or modeling electrons as multi-dimensional strings give us very reliable information on what is happening. We may not understand that as well as we understand relativity, but they are still reliable models.

Your error seems to be that of equating "not yet fully understood" with "spiritual". They are not the same thing.
 
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trophy33

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Your error seems to be that of equating "not yet fully understood" with "spiritual".
Not at all.

It seems you have not read the definitions I gave and think that spiritual means "magical" or something like that.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Not at all.
Fine. String theory and consciousness are net yet fully understood. We agree that this does not mean they are spiritual.

I rest my case.
 
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trophy33

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Fine. String theory and consciousness are net yet fully understood. We agree that this does not mean they are spiritual.

I rest my case.
I have no idea what you are talking about. It seems you ignore what I wrote and defined in my previous posts.

So let us let it be.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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But the opposite is also true. Conciousness "produces" specific changes in brain.

"Produces" is not the word, because there is no proven causality between the two, but not sure which one to use instead. Maybe "is reflected by".
That is entirely consistent with (and a prediction of) consciousness being a brain process (or set of processes).

I think the reification of 'consciousness' (or 'mind') as some kind of 'thing' or 'stuff' in its own right is a serious (though understandable) category error. Consciousness involves complex information processing, and that is exactly what we see occurring in the conscious brain.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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The most prominent theory right now is that the fabric of the universe are tiny immaterial non-spacial and non-physical strings whose vibrations create what we call space, time and physical particles.

When you think about it, they have all the props of being spiritual.
I think your description highlights a sematic problem that crops up in physics talk about fundamental physics, about the meaning of 'physical' and 'reality'.

In quantum field theory, the particles which make up our human-scale reality are not really particles at all, but waves, excitations of quantum fields that permeate all space. Spacetime itself is thought likely to be emergent from quantum phenomena at a more fundamental level (e.g. entanglement). But I don't think there are many physicists that would say quantum fields are non-physical; rather, they represent a physical reality very different from our everyday experience. If fields are non-physical, then everything is non-physical - the distinction between physical and non-physical becomes moot.

String theory is a theory dealing with mathematical abstractions that may well represent a different form of fundamental physics, but the same reasoning applies.

Also, whatever name we give to the fundamental nature of what gives rise to our experiential world, the physical theories that describe it are mathematically rigorous, which means that although we may not be able to explain or understand all the complexity they give rise to, we can be confident beyond reasonable doubt what cannot occur under their regimes. By analogy with chess, we may not be good players or be able to explain or understand some game positions, but we know which moves are possible and which are not. If someone claims to solve a chess problem by moving a rook diagonally, we know they're wrong without bothering to check what they did.

It's not even necessary to explore the fundamental levels to have such confidence - the 'completion' of the Standard Model of particle physics (we know it's not the whole story, but we've completed part of the jigsaw) and the millions of empirical results that confirm it, tells us that the physics underlying everyday life at human scales is now understood. We know that we're made up of protons neutrons and electrons and we know the forces that can significantly influence them because that regime has been thoroughly explored.

Sean Carroll explains that claim and its implications at 34 mins into this video:
 
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AV1611VET

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Given that nobody does this "arc and spark"... EVER.
And Darwin never wrote your precious "The Preservation of Favoured Races".
Actually he did.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Not at all.

It seems you have not read the definitions I gave and think that spiritual means "magical" or something like that.
Since you brought "spiritual" into this, why don't you define what you mean by the word?

Somehow you have asserted that string theory deals with things that are spiritual, but you have done nothing to validate that claim. I don't even know what you mean when you say they are spiritual.
 
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AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
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The inappropriate content industry exists.
Also, it doesn't tempt people. It feeds their fantasy.
Ya ... and I'm Genghis Khan.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Pre-established harmony - between mind and body, between spiritual and physical
Pre-established harmony - Wikipedia
I am just now going through this discussion on the mind. I was expecting a little lighthearted conversation on this thread, but here we are debating string theory and the nature of consciousness. Go figure.

I see "pre established harmony" as establishing nothing. It seems to agree that physical impulses lead to the brain, they are processed there, and then the brain controls various outputs. So where does a soul fit into all this? This view seems to say there is a spiritual processing going on in parallel, and by some dumb stroke of luck, decides to do the same thing the brain decides.

Such a soul adds nothing to our understanding of the mind.
 
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Mr Laurier

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Actually he did.
Actually, he didn't.
But dont let the truth stop you from spinning a subtitle as a title, while carefully omitting the actual title.
Please post the REAL title.
 
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Mr Laurier

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Ya ... and I'm Genghis Khan.
Well go get AV

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
James isnt here. Address me. And leave the silly numbers out of it 794:325
And explain your bizzare post
 
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