Who are you?

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,258
8,056
✟326,229.00
Faith
Atheist
For example pain is immaterial, but it exists as we all know very well. Or thoughts. You can locate neurons in the brain, but not thoughts they correlate to.
Not only can the patterns of neural activity when specific thoughts occur be identified, but this information has also been used to communicate with patients with locked-in syndrome, who are unable to make any voluntary movements. It is also possible to identify what letter or number someone is thinking of by scanning the visual cortex.

Pain is a conscious sense experience (qualia) that occurs when particular areas of the brain are stimulated while consciousness is active - IOW, it's what it is like for us, when those neurons are active.

Are you really suggesting that pain, our sensation of the specific activities of specific neurons in the brain, is the same kind of thing as spirit?

The pain pathways have been pretty thoroughly mapped - here's a video introduction:

Yes, it correlates, as brain is the physical "mirror" of the mind.
It's more accurate to say that the mind is what the brain does. IOW brain activity constitutes the mind. Every detectable or reportable aspect of the mind and consciousness has been shown to depend on brain activity, including high-level features such as personality, opinions, moral & social values, personal preferences, etc. All these can be changed, either subtly or radically, by modifying brain activity.

Experience cannot be a function of brain in the similar manner as photons running on the eye's retina is not the mental image we actually see.
Experience is what happens when we integrate all the information from our internal bodily organs with external sensory data. Our experiential world is a prediction, continually corrected by incoming sensory data. For example, the high-res, full colour, 3D, wide-angle image of the world you see is not what your eyes send to your brain, it's a predictive construct your brain generates (i.e. a guess). The data from the eyes don't have the bandwidth or quality to directly produce that full image, instead, it's mainly used to correct the prediction, which is what you experience.

There is a clear distinction between what happens in the material and immaterial world and no connection between the two was found till today, I think. They just "somehow" mysteriously work together.
Not sure what you mean by that...
 
Last edited:
  • Winner
Reactions: Estrid
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,846
3,552
N/A
✟145,341.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Not only can the patterns of neural activity when specific thoughts occur be identified, but this information has also been used to communicate with patients with locked-in syndrome, who are unable to make any voluntary movements. It is also possible to identify what letter or number someone is thinking of by scanning the visual cortex.

Pain is a conscious sense experience (qualia) that occurs when particular areas of the brain are stimulated while consciousness is active - IOW, it's what it is like for us, when those neurons are active.

Are you really suggesting that pain, our sensation of the specific activities of specific neurons in the brain, is the same kind of thing as spirit?

The pain pathways have been pretty thoroughly mapped - here's a video introduction:

It's more accurate to say that the mind is what the brain does. IOW brain activity constitutes the mind. Every detectable or reportable aspect of the mind and consciousness has been shown to depend on brain activity, including high-level features such as personality, opinions, moral & social values, personal preferences, etc. All these can be changed, either subtly or radically, by modifying brain activity.

Experience is what happens when we integrate all the information from our internal bodily organs with external sensory data. Our experiential world is a prediction, continually corrected by incoming sensory data. For example, the high-res, full colour, 3D, wide-angle image of the world you see is not what your eyes send to your brain, it's a predictive construct your brain generates (i.e. a guess). The data from the eyes don't have the bandwidth or quality to directly produce that full image, instead, it's mainly used to correct the prediction, which is what you experience:
visualField.bmp

The smallest square in the 'human perception' image is the most detailed (full-colour, fully focused high-res) part - it's about the size of a thumbnail at arm's length.

Not sure what you mean by that...
Our posts are getting longer and longer, so I will try to shorten it again a bit:

Yes, I know that when you feel pain, something happens in the brain, when you see an object, something happens in the brain and when you think a tree, something happens in the brain.

But there has never been proven any causality between the two, so to say "the mind is what the brain does" has no scientific support, for now.

Its actually a deep philosophical problem that has no solution, currently, because the two worlds are so basically different (electrical impulse vs pain, activated neurons vs tree, electromagnetic wave vs color).
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,846
3,552
N/A
✟145,341.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The inappropriate content industry makes a killing doing that.
And not just the inappropriate content industry. If we would count any situation women (men are not using it so much) got something because of their looks, the inappropriate content industry would look like a poor guy.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,258
8,056
✟326,229.00
Faith
Atheist
Our posts are getting longer and longer, so I will try to shorten it again a bit:

Yes, I know that when you feel pain, something happens in the brain, when you see an object, something happens in the brain and when you think a tree, something happens in the brain.

But there has never been proven any causality between the two, so to say "the mind is what the brain does" has no scientific support, for now.

Its actually a deep philosophical problem that has no solution, currently, because the two worlds are so basically different (electrical impulse vs pain, activated neurons vs tree, electromagnetic wave vs color).
It's just the simplest explanation - all the evidence suggests that specific kinds of brain activity and conscious experiences are the same thing from different viewpoints - the objective view of the outsider, and the subjective view of the 'insider' (i.e. the individual whose brain activity it is). It's in principle impossible to objectively describe & explain subjective experience except in terms of the correlation between them, or indirectly, via metaphor & simile.

I agree with Anil Seth that it seems most likely that the more we find out about how brain activity correlates with conscious experience, the more the 'hard problem' of consciousness (why/how there is subjective experience) will become outdated, in much the same way as the puzzle of what carries heat around, or the mystery of what the 'spark of life' is and where it comes from. Both problems were surrounded with ideas of mystical immaterial substances that eventually became redundant.

In a fundamental sense, all explanations attribute causality to observed correlations. As David Hume said, what we call causality is a matter of observed contiguity and succession, but particularly, 'constant conjunction' of events.
 
Upvote 0

AV1611VET

SCIENCE CAN TAKE A HIKE
Supporter
Jun 18, 2006
3,850,672
51,419
Guam
✟4,896,791.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And not just the inappropriate content industry.
Then why do you think it's metaphorical?

If the inappropriate content industry can tempt people, why can't Satan?
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,846
3,552
N/A
✟145,341.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Then why do you think it's metaphorical?

If the inappropriate content industry can tempt people, why can't Satan?
I did not say that a literal satan cannot tempt people. I am open to that possibility. But for now I do not see it as necessary. We have enough of evil in our own bodies to tempt us and enough profit-searching people to exploit that.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,846
3,552
N/A
✟145,341.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It's just the simplest explanation - all the evidence suggests that specific kinds of brain activity and conscious experiences are the same thing from different viewpoints
Can you link some study that brain activity and concious experience is the same thing? Because I can find none.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,258
8,056
✟326,229.00
Faith
Atheist
Can you link some study that brain activity and concious experience is the same thing? Because I can find none.
It's implicit in physicalist treatments of consciousness. That Anil Seth link has links to many articles and other media on it. This one, The Real Problem of Consciousness, is a good overview - around halfway through he says:

"My preferred perspective on consciousness is known as physicalism (also often called materialism): this is the idea that the universe is made of physical stuff, and that conscious states are either identical to, or somehow emerge from, particular arrangements of this physical stuff. The question, of course, is how?"​

He then continues to describe how he sees the path to tackling it, in terms of what he calls the 'Real problem', "This means explaining why a particular conscious experience is the way it is— why it has the phenomenological properties that it has— in terms of physical mechanisms and processes in the brain and body."

This aligns with my view, developed over some time, although I don't see a significant distinction between the identity theory and the emergence theory. It seems to me that, as he suggests, when we've substantially explained why a particular conscious experience is the way it is in terms of physical mechanisms and processes in the brain and body, the 'hard problem' will no longer be any more relevant than the puzzle of how magnets work, or what the spark of life is.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,846
3,552
N/A
✟145,341.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
It's implicit in physicalist treatments of consciousness. That Anil Seth link has links to many articles and other media on it. This one, The Real Problem of Consciousness, is a good overview - around halfway through he says:

"My preferred perspective on consciousness is known as physicalism (also often called materialism): this is the idea that the universe is made of physical stuff, and that conscious states are either identical to, or somehow emerge from, particular arrangements of this physical stuff. The question, of course, is how?"​

He then continues to describe how he sees the path to tackling it, in terms of what he calls the 'Real problem', "This means explaining why a particular conscious experience is the way it is— why it has the phenomenological properties that it has— in terms of physical mechanisms and processes in the brain and body."

This aligns with my view, developed over some time, although I don't see a significant distinction between the identity theory and the emergence theory. It seems to me that, as he suggests, when we've substantially explained why a particular conscious experience is the way it is in terms of physical mechanisms and processes in the brain and body, the 'hard problem' will no longer be any more relevant than the puzzle of how magnets work, or what the spark of life is.
Ok, so its just a hypothesis, on the same level of probability as idealism or dualism. I, obviously, prefer dualism or idealism.

If dualism was true, I would currently go with pre-established harmony and if idealism was true, then with something like monads (I would perhaps mapped them to something like strings in string theory).
 
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,258
8,056
✟326,229.00
Faith
Atheist
Ok, so its just a hypothesis, on the same level of probability as idealism or dualism. I, obviously, prefer dualism or idealism.
The point is that it is based on the available evidence; it may be wrong, but as it stands, it's the best explanation by objective criteria - it's testable, falsifiable, makes fruitful predictions, it has a unifying scope, it doesn't raise more questions than it purports to answer, it's parsimonious, and it's conservative.

If dualism was true, I would currently go with pre-established harmony and if idealism was true, then with something like monads (I would perhaps mapped them to something like strings in string theory).
What does the evidence suggest?
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,846
3,552
N/A
✟145,341.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What does the evidence suggest?
Nothing, it can be interpreted in various ways. Even the string theory itself is without possible experiments, yet. And is just a concept.

But dualism or idealism seem to be more probable than materialism. We know that matter is not the fabric of the universe, so materialism cannot be the ultimate answer for anything.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FrumiousBandersnatch

Well-Known Member
Mar 20, 2009
15,258
8,056
✟326,229.00
Faith
Atheist
Nothing, it can be interpreted in various ways.
OK. I think the correlations between brain activity and consciousness, and the fact that specific changes in brain activity produce specific changes in consciousness point to the former being the cause of, or even identifiable with, the latter - and are not consistent with dualism. Idealism adds nothing useful by way of explanation. YMMV.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: doubtingmerle
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,846
3,552
N/A
✟145,341.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
the fact that specific changes in brain activity produce specific changes in consciousness
But the opposite is also true. Conciousness "produces" specific changes in brain.

"Produces" is not the word, because there is no proven causality between the two, but not sure which one to use instead. Maybe "is reflected by".
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
We know that matter is not the fabric of the universe, so materialism cannot be the ultimate answer for anything.
So what is the fabric of the universe? Soul? We don't even have evidence that soul exists.

The universe includes things other than matter, such as energy and forces.

But it aint got soul.
 
Upvote 0

trophy33

Well-Known Member
Nov 18, 2018
8,846
3,552
N/A
✟145,341.00
Country
Czech Republic
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So what is the fabric of the universe? Soul? We don't even have evidence that soul exists.

The universe includes things other than matter, such as energy and forces.

But it aint got soul.
The most prominent theory right now is that the fabric of the universe are tiny immaterial non-spacial and non-physical strings whose vibrations create what we call space, time and physical particles.

When you think about it, they have all the props of being spiritual.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Can you link some study that brain activity and concious experience is the same thing? Because I can find none.
I don't think that is how scientists would word it. Rather, brain activity produces the phenomenon that we call conscious experience.

Experiments have shown that the brain begins to fire and make the decision before we are conscious that we are making the decision. So, no, it is not consciousness that is in charge. Brain activity is in charge. "Consciousness" is the story our brain writes about what just happened.

The mind is constantly building a model of reality. It needs this model if it is going to make intelligent decisions. It uses data from our senses. But it also needs to know what is going on in the inside. It could not possibly be aware of every action of every neuron, so it builds a brief synopsis of the overall brain function. This internal model of its own action is constantly updating, and is recorded in memory as our conscious thought stream. But there appears to be several milliseconds delay between the actions and the "conscious awareness." The brain is in charge. It constantly updates the story of what is happening, and we call that continuous story writing "consciousness".

If instead, a soul is in charge, how can an immaterial soul move the electrons in the brain? Why does the soul lose effectiveness after a stroke? Why can brain damage effect the personality? Why can split brain people --with poor connection between the left and right hemispheres--not be aware of the motivations of the other half of the brain? If memories are stored in the soul, why can brain damage affect memories? Modern brain research simply is not compatible with the idea of a soul.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,703
2,335
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟467,320.00
Country
United States
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
The most prominent theory right now is that the fabric of the universe are tiny immaterial non-spacial and non-physical strings whose vibrations create what we call space, time and physical particles.

When you think about it, they are spiritual.
When you think about it, strings may be spiritual.

When I think about it, strings are natural.

So your thought experiment fails for me.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums